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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Tunney

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 11, 2004

    Posts: 14,369

    Location: London

    I have confidence in Keir Starmer's abilities and he's clearly head-and-shoulders above David Davis intellectually. However, even he can't successfully negotiate our exit without a plan. Corbyn has been very shy about setting out his vision of a UK outside of the EU and I doubt that Labour as a whole could ever agree on a direction. I doubt we'd be in significantly better position under Labour sadly.
     
  2. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 11,028

    Location: Lincs

    It's a shambles :p
     
  3. Caged

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 22,015

    Labour are doing what you'd expect the opposition to do though considering the state of politics in 2017 - not committing to anything, not setting out a vision, just hedging their bets so that they can always be in a position to hit the Tories. It's a sad state of affairs that politics is a media circus and measured by scoring hits on an opponent, but that's where we're at. I don't think the Tories in opposition would be doing anything differently other than letting the other side trip themselves up constantly.
     
  4. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 11,028

    Location: Lincs

    Hey, with all this new found sovereignty we will be getting and the ability to hold our MPs to account, I guess he, and the other useless shower of ****s won't get voted in again at the next GE....


    Oh look, a squadron of pigs just went flying by...
     
  5. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 10,246

    Location: Surrey

    Waiting on a flag waving brexiter types to dress up any deals with India as 'getting the empire back together' :p
     
  6. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 47,494

    Location: On the hoods

    I don't think a lot of people can distinguish between people coming in from the EU and outside the EU.

    Besides, I really don't see what difference it makes. A migrant is a migrant. They're taking your job regardless of where they're from.
     
  7. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 10,362

    That might be the first time I have agreed with you Dolph :)

    You sound like somebody was was willing to give it a chance, but as you say it's a shambles.

    Some people were saying it would fail because of "negative remainers"

    No, it will fail because there's no way we can be better off out of the EU.
     
  8. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 28,433

    Location: Co Durham

    Yet at a time when the "people" were clamoring that we are full, we can't handle anymore, we have no control over numbers from the EU, the number of immigrants from outside the EU kept increasing year on year and have continued to do so.

    If there were 100k too many coming the EU then our government should have let 100k less in from outside the EU.
     
  9. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 28,433

    Location: Co Durham

    Dolph I agree with you. Right up to the vote it was a coin toss which way I would vote as I do think leaving the EU at some point is the right thing to do.

    However, I felt that A it was the wrong time and B: Invoking article 50 the day after was madness and would only lead to a complete mess.

    I would have happily voted leave if somebody had put forward a competent 5 to 10 year plan to slowly extract us from the EU. A plan that was realistic and not just kneejerk soundbite about "immigrants" and "sovereignty"

    Perhaps 58 comprehensive impact studies on different sectors before we applied article 50 and building up a team of skilled negotiators would have persuaded me.
     
  10. jas72

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2006

    Posts: 10,017

    Location: Belgium land of chocolate

    Sadly this is too logical for the UK parliament which has not had enough dealings with consensus to make it work at any level.

    Thing is most MPs don't agree with Brexit so May is already working with a parliamentary minority on that front. Having cross party support would mean Labour Lib Dems and SNP having to help agree to Brexit, doesn't look likely and the opposition are quite rightly not touching Brexit as it is a poison chalice which no sane party would want to have their fingerprints on.


    I think most MPs outside of the Tory fanatics would love to put the breaks on the whole thing however this would mean Farage and co winning a large amount of votes on a one trick pony.

    Having 10 DUP MPs running the show is most disconcerting.
     
  11. Moses

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 24, 2007

    Posts: 24,926

    I think Starmer as a person is reasonably credible, but the point is that he’s not going to be acting independently of everything else. He’s constrained by his leader, the party’s policies, etc.
     
  12. Ocean Breeze

    Gangster

    Joined: Jul 1, 2009

    Posts: 443

    Bring on the Indians! At least polish people were white! Oh how I laugh at the Brexitards!
     
  13. jas72

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2006

    Posts: 10,017

    Location: Belgium land of chocolate

    They know what they want, they want the status quo but packaged differently so that they can sell it to the express/mail readers as a victory.

    The need to appease the ever increasing numbers of people in the UK who were fed up of low wages and job insecurity and felt powerless to stop any of it so they rallied against being told what to do (ie the UKIP protest voters)

    Of course individual reasons are many but by and large this vote was a protest vote against "the man".

    People honestly believed this vote would have no personal consequences apart from £350M MORE for the NHS, end to ECJ forcing us to keep rapists convicts, and Johnny Foreigner being expelled from the UK.

    Now presented with those "facts" what's not to like for the ordinary punter who has not the slightest interest in politics. How can you have a reasoned debate before the referendum on these points? You couldn't, thus it was impossible to change people's minds.

    Thing is I don't believe for a second that those that voted leave for the above reasons will be the ones financially better off.

    Cameron and the tories said they wanted to remain in the EU but did they really? Very poor campaign focused on not one single positive aspect of EU membership, not allowing long term residents (+5 years in UK) from EU to vote, not allowing UK citizens abroad to vote. (5 million voters right there who would probably have voted remain....)

    Do you really think a 2nd referendum now would produce a different result? I'm not convinced it would, people hate to be told they were wrong.
     
  14. jas72

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2006

    Posts: 10,017

    Location: Belgium land of chocolate

    I suppose this is in jest but please this is SC try to have a more reasoned post.

    The good thing is that the EU exit will possibly allow for the legalisation for the 1000s* of illegal Indians already living and working in the UK.

    *total estimate is 100 000 but it's a complete guess based on expired student visas the border control authority hasn't a clue how many are in the UK
     
  15. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,153

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    Don't worry, once Brexit happens no-one of sane mind in the EU will want to move to Britain anyway. Migrant workers are already starting to choose other countries due to the weak pound (was overvalued anyway!) or long term uncertainty of whether they can stay.
     
  16. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,153

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    While it's clear Corbyn isn't a fan of the EU, I think that party membership would push for remaining in the Single Market or Customs Union. Corbyn has folded before to the membership on things like Trident that go against his own views.
     
  17. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 10,362

    That's what you sometimes have to do as leader.
     
  18. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 42,789

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is corbyn has already suggested staying in the single market while also controlling immigration from the eu, which is one of the unicorns I mentioned, as such an option simply isn't available. Likewise, staying in the customs union means no other external trade deals, and I don't think that is compatible with what corbyn has proposed either.

    Neither party is capable of doing anything productive with Brexit.
     
  19. chroniclard

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 6,127

    The most productive thing would be to admit its a huge mistake and cancel it. :D
     
  20. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 42,789

    Location: Plymouth

    Yes, it would.
     


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