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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 10,298

    Location: Cambridge

    There's a better chance of getting more of what you want if you challenge the other sides offer.

    The longer time goes on, the more I'm convinced that only a really good (cake and eat) offer stands any chance of getting anywhere on the UK side. Anything else will result in months/years of arguments, and we'll have a default no deal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  2. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 29,353

    Location: Co Durham

    Problem is current government sold everybody that we could have our cake and it eat and it was going to be easy. They have put their careers on it. So if we can’t have that which I never thought for one second that we would then hard brexit is the on,y way to go.
     
  3. Panos

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

    Posts: 6,761

    Location: NE Lincolnshire

    Hahah :) Exactly.

    Ofc the EU already has replied

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cial-services-city-london-talks-a8246341.html

    And also from today's news...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-annually-customs-union-tariffs-a8251581.html

    These are not 10,000 basic pay/under the Income tax threshold limit, jobs.

    Talking about the City, since last summer the EU Commission is looking to create the legislation, forcing the euro clearance out of the UK. ($900billion per day)
    Is a complicated matter and unrelated to Brexit, however seems they do not want an unregulated market, which they won't be able to control, to doing so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/18dcf566-5025-11e7-bfb8-997009366969
     
  4. do_ron_ron

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 6,576

    The EU cannot afford to let the UK have everything it wants as the rest will demand the same or better. Cake and eat it has no chance.
     
  5. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 10,298

    Location: Cambridge

    I never said they could/would. Just that it's very likely that the current path will lead to political stalemate within the UK.
     
  6. CommonMan

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 19, 2018

    Posts: 111

    Location: London

    Maybe I am wrong in my reading of the above? It seems, that while you do not [thank goodness], suggest that all Leavers are xenophobes, racists and bigots, that you however, appear to imply that xenophobia racism and bigotry is exclusive to the Leave camp; hence you equate the vote to leave as a lurch to the 'Right'. It is a mystery to me why none/majority of the Remain voices appear to be unable to accept that very many Leavers occupy the moderate middle ground in politics.

    To clarify, I am not complacent about the current state of affairs, as corruption feeds on complacency……
    [Niemller] "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew.……" etc.
    I have a strong belief that the silent majority are fundamentally decent and tolerant. It is because of this belief, that I am optimistic that the current surge of the extreme far right voices will be quietened [though as history teaches us, never actually fully purged].
     
  7. Cern

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 2,377

    Location: London

    Xenophobia, bigotry and racism occurs across the whole political spectrum. However, it's not exactly controversial to say it's more a feature of right wing politics and something that has featured in the Leave campaign. It's not been helped by the way the government has failed to properly protect the rights and futures of EU citizens living in the UK and in so doing has created an atmosphere where it seems it's OK to make EU citizens and other non-EU immigrants feel unwelcome.

    The majority of Leave voters are certainly decent, tolerant people and many do consider themselves moderates I'm sure. But what they have to consider is they have hitched their horses to a political movement that has some far right wing elements riding with them and potentially unsavoury consequences too, particularly regarding immigration and human and workers rights.

    If these moderate Brexiters aren't happy with how the Brexit agenda seems to be being driven by right wing hardliners, then they'd best stop being the "silent majority" and speak out. But at the moment it seems they are tolerating this hardline agenda, perhaps afraid that if they don't go along with a hardline Brexit then it might not happen at all.
     
  8. CommonMan

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 19, 2018

    Posts: 111

    Location: London

    For the main part i agree with what you have written. Indeed on the issue of EU citizens already working and living here; not so long after the referendum result, I wrote to Downing street to say that I felt it was essential that the Government should act quickly to assure all such people that, they are welcome in the UK and that any agreement or even no agreement with the EU, would not retrospective,y affect their situation. Unfortunately, in this respect, Downing street has acted abysmally.

    With regard to a 'hardline' brexit, I believe both sides are at fault, Brussels and Westminster. While I guess that the majority of Remainers on this forum will undoubtedly very strongly disagree, but from the get-go, Brussels positioned their negotiating stance in a way that might even be construed as deliberately designed to provoke a hardline response from the UK. I have to agree with Dolph, when he writes that neither side came to the negotiating table in good faith.

    The question is, given what appears to be an impasse, where do we go from here? And yes I have seen and heard all the easy glib responses of…'Withdraw article 50', which have about as much thought behind them as a packet of crisps has intellect. Which then leaves us with the cliff edge risk of the UK doing a No Deal walk out. I do not think that the individual 27 constituencies of the EU or the UK are being served well by their respective 'deal brokers'.
     
  9. Dj_Jestar

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 28,238

    Location: Back in East London

    Brexit and recent politics in general (aided by austerity and general economic mess) has seen a rise in all forms of extreme opinion and politics. Mostly from the right. The number of politically motivated "domestic incidents" and hate crime has risen sharply since the referendum.
     
  10. Mr Badger

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,845

    Or you could take the view that the EU has been incredibly clear all along that a bespoke, cherry picked arrangement for the UK (including financial services etc.) was never going to fly and the Leave campaign (and more recently our Tory government) was massively dishonest to claim otherwise. Back before the referendum it was evident that a lot of Leave voters were kidding themselves that we would be able to have our cake and eat it when (limited trade deals aside) the options are realistically full EU membership, EFTA membership or hard Brexit out of the single market and customs union. The irony of course being that the UK already has a bespoke EU membership package with veto, opt outs and its own currency.

    I thought that if Leave won it would be literally years before the UK was in a position to trigger Article 50 - and it appears that I was absolutely right! Triggering Article 50 and starting the clock with no consensus and no plan was insanely reckless and Theresa May's red lines and Boris's buffoonery quickly painted the UK into a corner. Aside from those trapped in a Daily Mail/Express/Sun echo chamber, how many people really still think that ploughing on over the cliff regardless is better than withdrawing Article 50?

    From 15 July 2016: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...wants-from-brexit-negotiations-20160715110899
     
  11. Nate--IRL--

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 20, 2004

    Posts: 3,334

    Location: Dublin, Ireland

    Indeed and it is looking more and more like the EU is simply showing the UK the Door.

    Statement by Michel Barnier to the European Parliament plenary session on negotiations Article 50 with the United Kingdom
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-1925_en.htm

    Google translate....

     
  12. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 29,353

    Location: Co Durham

    Hard Brexit it is then. Remind me how many hundreds of billions that is going to cost the Uk according to our Government?
     
  13. Sleepery

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 4, 2003

    Posts: 9,606

    Location: Fraggle Rock

    This is the most insane part of the whole thing. The UK really did have a cake and eat it deal.
     
  14. Bluntwrapped

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 20, 2011

    Posts: 2,771

    Location: Livingston

    If the government can afford hundreds of billions to remove the UK from the EU, there is no viable excuse for demonstrating one of the most embarrassing moments in recent history.

    If the same hundreds of billions had gone on education, public services and job creation, we wouldn’t find ourselves in this ridiculous position in the first place.
     
  15. arknor

    Caporegime

    Joined: Nov 22, 2005

    Posts: 35,051

    Location: Newcastle/Zurich

    A wild magical money tree Appears
     
  16. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 12,813

    Location: Lincs

    Following Hammonds "Evertything is all bright and rosy speech yesterday" The OBR said we'd still be paying the 'EU Divorce Bill' by 2064

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...divorce-bill-until-2064/ar-BBKahJ7?li=BBx1bGE

    and today the IFS are saying we need to raise £30bn a year more in taxes by mid-2020's if we want to balance the books

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43397798

     
  17. do_ron_ron

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 6,576

    Another good news Brexit story. Must be Project Fear, fake news, or what ever the current Leaver excuse is.
     
  18. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 10,298

    Location: Cambridge

    The divorce bill payments are negligible after 2023/4. The UK requested that it will not pay for anything sooner than it would have done as a member. The long running commitments are largely pension payments.
     
  19. do_ron_ron

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 6,576

    Maybe. maybe not. It all depends on which agencies the UK wants to still be a member of. They have already said they want to be a member of Europol, Euroatom and the medical agency for example. The Govt have already said they will pay for these. Only a hard Brexit and a Govt that wants to ignore police cooperation across Europe would stop these future payments.
     
  20. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 10,298

    Location: Cambridge

    Yeah, but that's not the divorce payment, which covers existing liabilities.