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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. inogen

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,163

    Who gives a **** so long as we still get to eat.
     
  2. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 29,347

    Location: Co Durham

    So the CBI have put forward their proposal for immigration post brexit.

    No limits on number of people
    Criteria is they have a job or can support themselves or out within three months.

    So basically the same as what we have now with FOM but just a name change then?
     
  3. JRS

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 6, 2004

    Posts: 12,560

    Location: Burton-on-Trent

    Exact opposite may be slightly hyperbolic, but you have to admit it's a long way from true sovereignty. Especially since this:


    actually doesn't appear to be truly on the table given the whole 'keeping EU environmental and social protections' bit.

    The key part there being that nobody will be happy with it.

    Hard Brexit would at least initially please a few people, and the shock following it might actually get TPTB to wake up and realise how much damage they've just wrought and work to pedal it back. No Brexit would be fine for the ~48% who voted that way, the Leave voters who have changed their mind since, the proportion of people who have hit voting age since the referendum who would like to Remain and the apathetic non-voters who clearly didn't mind staying in the EU enough to go out and vote Leave. Frankly, though I'd of course advocate for no Brexit I'd say that a hard Brexit could almost be worth the initial pain as it'd more than likely lead to us being back in the EU inside a decade (though with less preferential terms than we had, probably). A Chequers-style fudge would just leave us with ~25 years of crappy deals with the US while our noses are pressed against the EU's window looking longingly in :-/
     
  4. Moses

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 24, 2007

    Posts: 26,331

    It also depends what they mean by the end of free movement of people, and if this is a minority of states or actually something the EU27 will be able to agree on. If it just becomes free movement of people who’ve got a job offer nothing much’ll actually change. We’ll still have the same number of people coming here to do the same work... whilst becoming a rule taker, accepting ECJ judgments, etc etc.

    The EU Parliament also have to agree, too, obviously.
     
  5. Moses

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 24, 2007

    Posts: 26,331

    I like how the CBI are now suggesting stuff like compulsory registration and being able to kick people out after three months if they don’t have a job. If only we could do that under current rules :(.
     
  6. ltron

    Hitman

    Joined: Aug 30, 2014

    Posts: 642

    This is obviously much better than no deal, but it doesn't include single market access to services which make up much of our economy. Still infinitely better than no deal. Will it please the Brexiteers though? Other than on freedom of movement from EU countries it is much worse than what we have now.
     
  7. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 19,914

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    This is the problem for the Leave campaign: they're hopelessly divided over strategy. None of their many factions can agree on a coherent plan, or how to deliver it.

    UKIP has been pushing for no deal/WTO, Leave HQ has been pushing for 'cake and eat it' (an option they hilariously call 'Flexcit') and between those two groups there's a dizzying array of Brexit tribes all tearing each other apart.
     
  8. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 29,347

    Location: Co Durham

    Well there was somebody from the government on radio 4 this morning saying the CBI proposal is too complicated and they prefer the system where a UK company can only employ somebody from the EU (or rest of the world) if there isn't anybody qualified to the do job who is anywhere in the UK. Stupid. Basically for most positions that will mean zero immigration allowed. If it can be shown that there is an unemployed guy in Edinburgh who is qualified for the job in London then the London company won't be able to employ an EU person .
     
  9. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 6,080

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Very much loldowie I am afraid

    What you seem to fail repeatedly to get is, you don't get to time after time change the subject direction and then complain when people do the same back

    I will try to spell it out for you again.

    I hold the UK government responsible for air quality. Yes we are in the EU, and yes they are failing. The only check and measure in existence today is the EU against our government so that would be lost with Brexit

    IF, and yes its an IF, there is clear improvement in air quality within the EU, that we fail to match post Brexit I would deem that indicative of a Brexit failure, since it would be an indication of what we should reasonably have expected had we of remained within the EU, cos you know, thats what we equally would have been signed up to.

    I get that being part of the EU is not a requirement to improve air quality, I also get that we are currently failing despite membership. But we do have a government that actively tried to avoid what it was committed to doing.
    Based on this I do not trust the government to do the right thing.

    So I am looking forwards, if the EU does a great job of improving the air quality (relatively) and we do likewise then its not a failing of Brexit. If the EU don't, but we do then its probably a positive of Brexit, if the Eu improve and we do not, then its probably a failing of Brexit. Simply because of what we would have expected to see if we had of remained a member. Not sure why I have to keep explaining the nuances as if it was a class of 8 year olds.

    :)
     
  10. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 33,897

    I've not changed the subject direction, I've pointed out that contrary to what you were attacking when quoting me I didn't say air quality is the fault of the EU, you attacked a straw man when you quoted me. And you threw in an ad hominem too... its pathetic tbh...

    and there we go again... you don't need to explain anything thanks, you can just try to read what I actually posted and attempt to have a serious discussion beside on that instead of attacking things I've not posted and throwing in snide remarks....
     
  11. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 6,080

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    But historically the UK despite being quite small geographically has terrible labour mobility.

    Where I work the factory guys are paid around double national average wage. They get really good benefits on top, pension, private health etc
    The last 6 years or so, i would say is 50/50 between UK nationals and foreign nationals (mainly eastern european) when taken on.
    There hasn't been a single UK national application from anyone living more than about 20 miles away. Yet we have people relocating from the other side of Europe.

    Yet I bet if these same jobs were in some decent size places in the UK they would be swamped with applications.

    There are no barriers to entry basically, other than being able to read and write, and follow instructions to the letter.
     
  12. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 6,080

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    You made up your own straw man, as ever at the start, you didn't respond to what I had written at all.
    Its always the same, in here, in most other threads.

    Anyway at least you got to bingo your favourite straw man and ad hominem, wouldnt be the same without them thrown in

    Maybe if you debated in good faith you may not have so many issues and you could be taken seriously
     
  13. Moses

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 24, 2007

    Posts: 26,331

    I’d guess that’d ‘just’ require a job advert and there to then be no applicants, or no suitable applicants.

    But if the kinds of measures I mentioned are too complicated, I wonder why other EU states already implement them :confused:.
     
  14. Mr Badger

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,839

    Over the last couple of years I’ve been thinking about what should be in a Brexit deal with the EU and have finally settled on the following list of demands. Admittedly this is an ambitious list and probably too much to expect the UK government to achieve, however if they could it would safeguard the UK economy and address many Leaver concerns:

    • The UK gets frictionless access to the single market and customs union.
    • EU migrants should not be allowed to claim jobseekers allowance during their first 3 months in the UK and after 3 months they need to be either working, have a member of the family working or have sufficient funds to live (and have full sickness insurance). If not then they can be returned to their home country.
    • The UK can veto other countries joining the EU so we can keep out Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
    • The UK can opt out of the Schengen Agreement so we can take back control of our borders.
    • The UK can opt out of Economic and Monetary Union so we can keep the Pound Sterling and not have to use the Euro.
    • Although we will pay money to the EU, we should get a rebate on our contributions because we’re special and should not have to pay on the same basis as the other countries.
    • The UK should have some sort of opt out from ever closer union, or at least have the right to hold a referendum on any EU treaty changes.

    So, too much to ask for?
     
  15. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 6,080

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Lol, put that way I wonder how many Brexiteers would say fine :)
     
  16. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,483

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    No Government has yet shown it gives a damn about improving air quality.

    Of the two instutions - the EU or the British Government - I trust the EU far more.
     
  17. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 5,081

    Location: OCP Headquarters

    If the EU had offered those concessions to Cameron, there wouldn't have been a referendum.
     
  18. JRS

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 6, 2004

    Posts: 12,560

    Location: Burton-on-Trent

    Nice one :D
     
  19. krooton

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 9, 2004

    Posts: 23,714

    Location: London

    Woosh?
     
  20. Mr Badger

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,839

    ;)
     
  21. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 13,739

    This is funny, yet tragic.