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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,883

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is the people who aren't listening to her are also not acknowledging the reality of what is happening. Those who advocate no deal are still insisting that, having told the eu to sod off over their deal, that the EU will help mitigate no deal (the so called managed no deal). This isn't going to happen. The eu will protect itself, but will not do anything to protect us at all. There are countries in the eu that would happily damage their economy etc to damage ours.

    Likewise, those who claim they could negotiate a better deal, while still insisting on special treatment and cherry picking, are failing to acknowledge the reality that it won't happen. The eu negotiates with countries, not governments, and a different deal is not likely while there are any redlines that breach eu rules. The eu has also shown absolutely no desire to negotiate the type of custom union labour advocate, not least because it would give the uk a massive influence in eu external trade policy, which is not going to happen

    Additionally, Norway don't want us in the EEA, as we would dominate it both economically and population wise, and the eu has no desire to create another Switzerland situation.

    May, for all her faults, is one of the few who are actually working with reality on this issue. The fact that the reality sucks isn't May's fault. Her only fault is that now the reality is clear, she isn't looking to call a second referendum based solely on reality.
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,883

    Location: Plymouth

    The flaw in that is that you don't need to be an MP to be pm, at least not with rules as written. So novel processes may well not work, as if convention is being bent for one part, it can be bent in response.
     
  3. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 7,888

    Naturally the EU countries will protect themselves as much as possible. Why would they do anything different? We would if we were not in this Brexit fairyland.
    'Countries in the EU happily damage their economy to damage ours'. Really?? There are enough problems at the moment so I think your statement is just another Brexiteer slogan unless you can provide evidence from a credible source.

    The rest of your post made sense.
     
  4. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 60,209

    I don't agree that she set out with the right strategy from the start to get the best deal possible but there are certain areas no one would have got a different deal and it is done and dusted now - the EU isn't going to suddenly change things just because someone different is at the helm at this stage.
     
  5. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,883

    Location: Plymouth

    The thing is, the people in those countries who advocate punishing or making things as hard as possible for the uk are a bit like our Brexiteers in that they don't acknowledge that the act would also harm them, which makes it rather hard to quote them.

    The reality of such actions is that it would harm them, but they would probably try to blame the harm on us, just as our Brexiteers blame the eu, not their position, for harm.

    But we've been through this before, you are totally unwilling to see any negative whatsoever in the eu. In your own way, you share the problem of not working in reality.
     
  6. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,883

    Location: Plymouth

    I didn't agree with her starting point either, I still don't. The whole idea of Brexit is stupid, as pretty much any achievable deal is going to be worse than staying in, which makes it hard to agree with any start point that involves leaving.

    Both parties were bound by their manifestos, which were never going to match reality.
     
  7. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 7,888

    That is wrong as all the people in the EU have said this was a lose-lose game even before the result. Nobody is punishing us, we are doing it ourselves. They are also not making it as hard as possible as it is the Tory Party that is split and in-fighting that has resulted in us being unable to put forward an agreed Plan A. May retreated to her bunker, surrounded herself with few MPs and advisors and came up with something most do not want. They have treated us rather well considering but this may only be to limit the damage to themselves.
    It is your inability to see/admit that the Tory Party is 100% to blame for this fiasco that is the problem. Right from the start it has been Party before Country.
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,812

    While you seem to be acting like a scorned lover. I dont mind criticism at all, I just find the lies and exaggeration distasteful if Im honest.

    Amen.
     
  9. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,883

    Location: Plymouth

    Like I said, you share the same problem with reality from a different slant.
     
  10. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 60,209

    You've got a problem if you can't separate my criticism from that of a scorned lover never mind banding accusations of lies and exaggeration to try and blunt what I say...

    By way of example you can see for yourself I've stuck to the points of merit rather than jumped on every and any angle to smear him though I doubt you can allow yourself to admit that because then you'd have to separate me from those just out to smear him and consider there might actually be something to what I say.

    PS If you check around some other parts of these forums I'm generally right when it comes to the long term picture - often picking up flack along the way.
     
  11. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 7,888

    Right from the start you have tried to deflect blame away from the Tories. You claim to have voted Remain but you came out, and still do with the Brexiteer slogans 'They are trying to punish us' etc. You have been trying to deflect blame to the Labour Party, constantly. I am only surprised you somehow have not managed to add your other hobbyhorse the unions in the list. You talk about reality but it is not me as a number of posters on this thread have said the same thing about you. You are like a Brexiteer, it is always someone else's fault which is why I doubt you voted Remain but probably Leave then later thought it might not be such a good idea and have been backpaddling ever since but still cannot let go of the slogans.
     
  12. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 16,409

    I ******* hope the EU punishes us, we deserve it and we dont live in a fantasy world where we're all friendly either, we essentially just gave what little resemblance of friendship we had up to be "free".

    It's a cutthroat world and if i could make my country better by stealing jobs/economy from someone else i would, i won't begrudge them for being selfish.
     
  13. matt100

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2004

    Posts: 10,827

    Location: Salisbury

    That's a disgusting view on life.. Really depressing and defeatist.
     
  14. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 16,409

    Its literally the basics of foreign policy, if we're going to be ******** by leaving the most comprehensive economic agreement in history, then we better be ready to play the game ahead of us. We should only be so well versed in this fact after 200 years of Imperial policies.

    The mega-strange paradox of the brexiteers being isolationist and "free-trade" confounds me, but whatever, everything is to play for now and the people who voted for this will get everything they deserve.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  15. Uther

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 8,851

    Interesting waffle from Grayling today, he has warned of a "less tolerant society" and a "more nationalistic nation" if the UK doesn't leave the EU...
    Surely it's the other way round?
     
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 16,409

    It's either way around because we'll never be as prosperous as we are in our current position, he's just a disingenuous treasonous balding scumbag as usual.

    Literally no choice will make any difference to the reality of a far-right surge, they're coming no matter what.
     
  17. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 3,410

    Whole post good, but on that point..

    The irony is that for all the Brexiteer inanity about how she's a Remainer sabateur, May has put together what is really the only Brexit that they were ever going to get, and Remainers best hopes of Brexit being thwarted is Brexiteer rejection of this deal.
     
  18. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 7,888

    It was the English nationalism/exceptionalism that propelled this fiasco. The so-called newspapers have pushed this notion with headlines and much frothing. Could it go more nationalistic? Doubt it. As you say, we already have it, it caused an MP to be murdered.
     
  19. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 7,888

    With the caveat that what she got was due to her painting herself into a corner with her red lines and pandering to the hard Brexit element.
     
  20. StuBob

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 26, 2016

    Posts: 337

    Location: Scotland


    That is why for me, she has been laying the seeds and setting herself and her party up for an inevitable second referendum. Her letting slip of 'no Brexit at all' and the continuance thereafter of her deal beaing not only Brexit, but the best form of Brexit as no deal is not something that parliament will entertain whether by default or otherwise. She has constantly rebutted arguments for a second referendum by suggesting her party is the only one seeking to carry out the 'will of the people' nonsense, and all other parties are trying to thwart it. Unfortunately the chess game (being incredibly generous here) has to play out as she cannot be the one to call the referendum. This will be the only way to ensure and embolden support of her party now and for the next few years. Ultimately it will be left for the population to decide how this plays out but either way the Tory party will be no worse off due to May's current chosen path.

    For reasons I've explained earlier A50 will not be extended by the EU unless it is for a second referndum on current stage Brexit, I would be confident that they would prefer not to extend it through a snap election as it just resets the clock really. As any incoming government could in theory potentiall revoke A50 after the fact again, unless they can gain necessary revisions to the Treaty.

    I am extremely confident that this will be going to a second referndum and whatever the outcome, the Tory party will be graced from the ebacle it has presided over thes last few years.