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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,814

    The leave campaign were nothing to do with Theresa May though

    The problem was it was in their manifesto during the last GE
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,542

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is such a move will stop even more Tory mps voting for it, because we'd have even less control than under the backstop.

    Couple that with labour still not taking things seriously and voting against things they agree with just because politics, and its hard to see how it would succeed even with a deal change.

    Remember, CU and SM are irrelevant to the wa voted on yesterday, they form part of the future relatuionshop negotiation, not the withdrawal negotiations.
     
  3. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,283

    Location: Cambridge

    It was a throw away comment not meant to be taken literally.

    I have tried very hard not to play the ‘Brexiteers are stupid’ card throughout this process, because some of them clearly aren’t. However yesterday did cross a line imo. There is a not insignificant part of brexit which is inseparable from a rather nasty form of English nationalism, which is largely based on ignorance.

    The biggest failure of the brexit movement is they have consistently failed to make a logical case for brexit, and have instead incubated resentment towards foreigners as a means to an end.

    The ERG members who spoke at yesterday march, the likes of Pete Bone and co don’t give a crap about the issues your average leave voter faces, but they are happy to play to the crowd to further their cause.

    Come what may these people will be betrayed.

    I cannot see a way to heal the division between myself and those who support a brexit as it’s currently being framed.
     
  4. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 21,901

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Brexiteers: 'Do you Remainers think you can just keep voting until you get the result you want? That's not how democracy works!'

    Also Brexiteers: 'We're going to try and pass the Brexit deal for a fourth time. We'll keep forcing Parliament to vote until we get the result we want!'
     
  5. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,516

    Perhaps older people are just a bit more learned, more years on this earth, my idea's used to be pretty socialist, most young politically minded people are naive idialogs.
     
  6. bayo000

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 28, 2008

    Posts: 3,841

    Location: Manchester

    I know, it will come down to if she's desperate enough to leave the EU (even if only in name) which she's been promising since start. Yes it would still be a gamble but if there's something in writing that would outline future negotiations there might be enough support for that.
     
  7. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,283

    Location: Cambridge

    Or maybe some of them are just bitter and resentful that others have done better than them and they no longer have the excuse of youth for their comparative underachievement.
     
  8. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,516

    That's socialism in a nutshell.

    Old people don't like being told what to do.
     
  9. Bonjour

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Mar 30, 2004

    Posts: 9,076

    Location: London

    The EU was essentially a customs union for a long time. It was the UK that pushed for the single market in the early 80s.
     
  10. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 3,421

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    Thanks for the info re: TM 's point if view on the/a custome union. I do keep finding as this rumbles on that I've forgotten a shed load of stuff that used to be important to the debate and now as if by magic has become relevant again. Particularly when it comes to the positions of individual parties on some of the options mooted earlier in the process
     
  11. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    Look at Scotland at its ref.

    Huge difference and as much emotion on both sides. It was a massive question that was addressed and those who voted for Independence lost apart of themselves and the identity they wanted.

    No suggestion that the ongoing existence of the S.N.P or the beliefs of independence voter's are somehow undemocratic.

    Not the same sense of anger, calls of betrayal, treason or traitor from either side of the debate.

    Level of emotion and anger here that is not reasonable, its not 'normal'. These things do not have to play out in this way. These are decisions and choices we make and we own them. Its not someone else's problem or fault it's ours and we have a responsibility to resolve it.

    We are also loosing something here, a civil society.

    Our democratic processes are under severe stress.
    Regardless of cause this is a system fail, the constitution can't cope with the question and issue.

    We are a civil democratic society.

    We should not loose sight of that and should start behaving like members of such a society.
     
  12. Jono8

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 20, 2007

    Posts: 27,967

    Location: Surrey

    What an absolutely rubbish generalisation.
     
  13. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,516

    People feel like they are being ignored, like they don't have a democratic voice, that they are being spited by the establishment.

    To some extent that is true and the only outlet they feel they now have is anger, THAT is what needs to be fixed because if its not it will get worse, not better.
     
  14. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,172

    I think from the start we should have looked at why people voted leave and clarified what they want - this headless running over the leave cliff because "leave means leave" which only an utter fool would utter is ridiculous. I think most people on every side of this mess have lost perspective and a whole lot boils down to Tory austerity measures and similar policies many of which mirror May's deal in that they might have some merits in the short term but choke the country in the long term.
     
  15. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: Aug 7, 2003

    Posts: 38,601

    Location: Aberdeenshire

  16. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,516

    I don't have to to had but apparently a recent pool showed 40% want to leave without a deal, i don't take much stock in any pool TBH they are always wrong, very wrong, but i do think the majority on leave voters do want a clean Break from the EU, so if you ask leavers what do you actually want that is the result you will get back.

    So what then?
     
  17. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,172

    Sign of the times I guess - I woke up today for the first time really realising how fundamentally broken this country is.
     
  18. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,516

    I admire her for her amazing resilience, but then again she allowed the EU to take control of the negotiations entirely.

    at this point if she was human she'd be more like this....

    [​IMG]
     
  19. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 3,421

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    This whole thing is begging for someone to put the brakes on and say "hang on, are these various options sensible, why would we be doing each of them, and is there anything else we could do". It's part of why I want a 2nd ref, i feel like the voices of reason, not just in terms of calling it off which would fit my wishes, but in terms of a more level head and reasoned debate, are in a serious minority in parliament at the moment.

    I've been pretty moderate and reasoned through out all of this. I have a view which I've held from the beginning and I am firm in that but I've not been militant. After the protests last night and another round of brexiteers spouting off in the media I'm now getting quite angry. I feel like the whole momentum of this Country had been hijacked by the most unpleasant of fringes, and I think ordinary Brexit voters should be even more concerned than me because they are now the people in charge of their movement.
     
  20. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,695

    Some of those people think no deal actually means remaining, it’s too vague.

    I won’t trust polls on that particular question.