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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'SC Archive' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

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  1. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,251

    Location: London

    It's a fair point and no-one should expect otherwise really. Remainers wouldn't be embracing a second vote if they'd squeezed home by a very slim margin.

    But this whole "we won" narrative needs to stop really. There's no winners here. We have a government in crisis, calling an emergency cabinet meeting tomorrow to decide on the "least worst option". This is where we're now at.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lock-continues-as-mps-fail-to-find-compromise

    Tory and Labour parties both badly split and losing MPs. Public split, polarised and angry. Businesses desperate for some certainty and stability. Millions of people with lives in limbo and uncertain futures. A country already with massive problems in just about every sector but with attempts to tackle these problems gridlocked by Brexit preoccupations and likely to be made worse whatever happens now.

    Who won exactly?
     
  2. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 31,175

    And this is 'your' reason as to why we should just forget about Brexit or at least have another go at another vote, right?
     
  3. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,251

    Location: London

    At this point, I'd accept any outcome other than No Deal or May's deal.

    I don't think Parliament should just revoke A50 without putting it to the public. I would have preferred that MPs coalesce behind a softer alternative in their indicative votes. But when you look down the voting records and see Tory MPs from very strongly Remain seats voting down ALL of the alternatives, well it's clear this is STILL all about the Tory Party and their pathetic self preservation. Parliament isn't going to solve this. If it needs a second public vote to break the deadlock, so be it.
     
  4. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 31,175

    There is a Brexit i think everyone can agree with, there is a way to unite the public, but they ain't going to go for it.

    We agree a free trade deal with the EU, we continue to pay in at current rates and we pay them the 39bn as a good will gesture, we take back our sovereignty in total, no more political alignment.

    We simply trade with them, we remain their friends and allies.

    That would unite the public, the problem is this is not what parliament want, they want to remain in a political union with them, the only way they think of uniting the public if those damned melding Brexit kids would just get out of our way.....
     
  5. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,251

    Location: London

    Canada model? But this doesn't solve the North Ireland border problem.

    Adding Customs Union membership fixes that. But this requires being under some degree of EU jurisdiction and of course has implications for independent trade deals (but do we seriously think we can do better than trade deals around the world we already have via our EU membership?).

    Easy to say "remain friends and allies" but this is meaningless when the reality is that ACTUAL friends and neighbours are being refused settled status (which also might not even be a possibility if we No Deal). Such sentiment doesn't match the reality of rising intimidation and discrimination toward EU citizens who have worked hard to contribute and integrate into UK life.

    Only way to unite the public is compromise. No Deal fundamentalism will never unite everyone. No Deal doesn't even unite all Leavers, despite the increasingly desperate revisionist attempts to pretend this is what everyone was knowingly voting for and allegedly now wants.

    Leavers might want their country back, but so do I because I don't recognise it since 2016. So nope, I won't be getting out of anyone's way, but happy to reach a compromise.
     
  6. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,250

    The Canada style model is the only one that comes close to the views most pro-leave people were airing around the time of the referendum while not being a big own goal as most the options on the table are... but as you pointed out it doesn't have a solution to the Irish border and Canada had their own trade agreements, etc. to depend on so weren't affected by the 7 odd years it took to hammer out while we would lose all our existing deals and have to start from scratch - so basically no deal like in the short term.
     
  7. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 31,175

    If we have a free trade deal with the EU why is the NI boarder a problem?
     
  8. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,340

    Surely you jest?
     
  9. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 31,175

    no.
     
  10. AthlonXP1800

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 28, 2014

    Posts: 2,787

    Location: Scotland

    No you not really won but 1-2 years on, the leave voters finally realised the Leave campaigners was told them about their Brexit plans was all lies, lies and lies then leave voters regret voted leave and they all now changed their mind to remain so that is why they all wanted 2nd referendum to vote to remain.

    Not surprised to see a few thousands brexiters marched through London on last Friday 29 March 2019 to supported Leave camp compared to over a million remainers marched through London on 23 March 2019 to supported Remain camp demanded revoke article 50 or 2nd referendum. Millions of brexiters voters obviously changed their mind to remain.

    I been read lots of news and comments about brexiters who voted to leave told they regret made a mistake to voted leave and wanted to revoked article 50 or 2nd referendum.

    Will Dry was leave voter voted to leave in 2016 but now he realised he made a mistake after Leave campaigners spread lies and he now decided to remain so he is now remain voter.

    https://news.sky.com/story/a-tale-of-two-marches-the-hunt-for-a-brexit-compromise-11678709

    Also Conservative Richard Drax made a mistake backed Theresa May's Brexit deal.

    https://news.sky.com/video/erg-memb...oting-with-government-on-brexit-deal-11681566

    Overwhelming majority of Sunday Times newspaper readers want to revoke Article 50.

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sunday-times-poll-on-revoking-article-50-1-5970008

    I am very pleased to see Confirmatory public vote had the highest support, we are really incredible very close to have 2nd referendum, Labour rebels, few SNP and Labours MPs who decided not to voted should be ashamed of themselves. If they had decided to voted then Confirmatory public vote would passed with a majority.
     
  11. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,279

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    No they're not.

    No they didn't. Polls said the final result was too close to call. They were correct: the result was so close, it fell within the margin of error.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  12. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,279

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Why do you think Brexit will win again? What evidence are you basing this on?
     
  13. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,821

    Location: Plymouth

    OK, it's clear that there is no good alternative, so revoke article 50 and end this charade.

    If May would make that her mic drop moment before she resigned, it might just help her in the history books too.
     
  14. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,279

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Historians would record her as a national hero who put the will of the people before party and career.
     
  15. Kreeeee

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Jul 13, 2004

    Posts: 41,434

    Location: /* */

    They also voted to reduce immigration, which the government ignored as it was against their legal agreement with the EU.
     
  16. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 2,112

    Who said anything about ignoring people, we're talking about not ignoring people by allowing them another say, just like Mrs May did when she called an GE 2 years after 11 million people already had a say, just like Mrs May has by returning her deal to the commons 2.5 times.

    Honestly i do find it odd that leave supporters find the idea of a 2nd referendum so objectionable, you'd think they'd jump at the chance to confirm the first time wasn't a fluke, wasn't obtained through cheating the system, that they'd welcome the opportunity of bringing the country back together all working towards a clearly defined goal....That is unless this was never about democracy, sovereignty, and taking back control.
     
  17. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 31,816

    Location: Co Durham

    You should visit places like where I live where 7 in 10 people voted leave and remainders are a minority. Nowadays if you mention remain or any kind of compromise you get called a traitor etc. Sadly out of those leavers, almost all are now convinced they want a no deal as they think it’s going to be fantastic. When I point out some of the problems with a no deal I get told I am fearmongering and no way would our government allow that to happen. I just say really?
     
  18. The Running Man

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 33,205

    Location: block 16, cell 12

    If there was a second referendum and the answer was stay, do we have a third or best oit if 3?

    If leave wins, again, do we have a third anyway just to see like MV3?

    Give it 10 years if we arent majing progress im sure we could apply for EU membership anyway.

    Its like project fear is a runnaway train. Some people.
     
  19. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,279

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Government: 'We're going to hold another referendum so you can voice your opinion again.'
    Brexiteers: 'WhY aRe YoU iGnOrInG uS?!'
    Government: 'We're not, we are literally doing the opposite.'
    Brexiteers: 'StOp IgNoRiNg Us!'

    :rolleyes:
     
  20. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 31,816

    Location: Co Durham

    And yet areas where I live where we practically have no immigration have some of the highest leave votes as they don’t want “ragheads coming to live in the village and rape their children” like the leave campaign warned them would happen?
     
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