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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,757

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Regardless if the ref was advisory or not - MP's are supposed to work together to make a bill pass through parliament suggesting amendments along the way until there is consensus. Thus a bill can be brought back multiple times
     
  2. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,450

    This is nonsense. They are elected to represent the electorate and they don't get reelected if they fall to deliver. They get judged in the next election, they don't get judged every step of the way like the country was one big committee.

    It's a parliamentary democracy, not a bowling club.
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,721

    Only if it does not offend parliament after it’s been rejected 3 times, ignoring the chicanery that is possible.

    May has run out of options on that front.
     
  4. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,757

    Location: Bristol, UK

    This is true - though it seems it would just kick the Brexit argument along a bit as the likes of UKIP will make a resurgence, MP's will get replaced for those who might vote the right way and next time it might come round when someone has a clear majority to exit without at thoughts of any deal
     
  5. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,573

    May's deal is worse than staying in, A compromise from both sides is perfectly fine, even desirable yet the rest of them are incapable of voting for anything that is a compromise, they are all polarized one way and the other.

    They all need to go and in that way people can vote in those who represent their will.
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,721

    With UKIP, brexit party, LD, CUK, Tory and labour shifts, there’s absolutely no ******* way to know how it’s going to go.

    The harder brexit lot will fall on mostly Tory seats, CUK LD will fall on remain seats for both major parties. Labour will undoubtedly lose seats in Scotland...
     
  7. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,238

    Location: Baa

    "Absolutely no-one is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market." - Dan Hannan, Vote Leave.

    That's a belter. :D
     
  8. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,174

    Location: London

    The only compromise that is a form of Brexit and likely to get cross party (and cross faction) backing is May's Withdrawl Agreement plus a Customs Union and minus the Backstop (which wouldn't be needed if we have a Customs Union). This still won't please the hardline Brexiters or purist Remainers, but I think it's time we stopped pandering to hardliners and let pragmatism solve this.
     
  9. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,573

    May's deal has issues other than the backstop.

    Trade with the EU, yes of course, But uncontrolled freedom of movement can't be a part of that deal, i think if its helpful to us to import people we should make those choices ourselves and they don't have to be from the EU, our own law making abilities must override those of the EU, again we can adopt what is useful to us, control of our own fisheries.

    I think that's reasonable, and it stops the need for the backstop.
     
  10. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,174

    Location: London

    May's Deal does not include Freedom of Movement, controlled or uncontrolled. FoM is one of May's strongest red lines.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/19/theresa-may-brexit-deal-political-reality

    Customs Union membership does not include Freedom Of Movement, controlled or uncontrolled.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/how-eu-works-what-customs-union/

    Get your facts right.
     
  11. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,573

  12. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,470

    How many times have politicians kept to their word, haven't you worked out yet that you can't take politicians at their word?

    I do find claims that Cameron, the government, other politicians, told them leave means leaving entirely rather odd, wasn't the entire reason for leaving based on politicians promising one thing and doing another, on not listening to the electorate, be that more integration with the EU when people didn't want it or not controlling immigration despite having the ability to do so and despite peoples objections.

    A strong theme running through the referendum was taking back control from the politicians and forcing the Westminster elite to listen, and yet despite knowing the Westminster elite have ignored people for decades you expect them not to do so this time around.
     
  13. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,130

    That isn't her plan any more. The only reason Meaningless Vote 3 came as close as it did is because she agreed to put everything but the leaving date in the hands of her successor. That brought the ERG on board because then they could try to capture the leadership and guarantee the hardest and most disastrous Brexit possible. The WA cannot be allowed to pass under those circumstances.
     
  14. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,211

    It does however I believe require a certain amount of aligning laws and other trade negotiations which is fine for a smaller state but not something a country like the UK should be entering into without more say over the process (like we have now) except as has been mentioned if a country like ours had been defeated in war or similar circumstances.
     
  15. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,550

    Location: Plymouth

    The backstop will not be removed, indeed cannot be removed, because the withdrawal agreement cannot assume success in the future relationship discussion.
     
  16. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,174

    Location: London

    Then why are you banging on about "uncontrolled freedom of movement can't be a part of that deal"? It's not part of May's deal and adding Customs Union to May's deal wouldn't change this either.

    Even if a commitment to joining the Customs Union is added to May's deal? Yes I know the EU have said they won't re-open negotiations on the WA, and indeed they won't for trivial changes, but I suspect they might if Customs Union was on the table.
     
  17. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,769

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Staying in the Customs Union doesn't need to be part of the WA; remember the WA is just a framework to start from when actually negotiating the deal. Agreeing the CA is part of what follows.
     
  18. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,573

    I'm laying out what i think is reasonable, i even said that.
     
  19. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,884

    Not sure where they got their facts, but someone here said we can agree a customs union in 2 days?
     
  20. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,174

    Location: London

    But the WA (with or without the Political Declaration) isn't going to pass in its current form, whether its MV4, MV5 or beyond. Adding a commitment CU membership could probably get it over the line. This would need to go in the Political Declaration part I would think, because as you say the WA only covers our starting point.