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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,792

    Location: Oxfordshire

    Nah. Too many new houses here and no extra gps. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants every year have to live somewhere.
     
  2. Royal Fleet

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 21, 2007

    Posts: 791

    Location: Fleet, Hampshire

    Not specifically aimed at you but I have an issue calling it a second referendum. To have another vote on the same question would be pointless. What we do need is a vote on the proposal to leave.

    All we need is for those that want to leave to agree on which is the best version of leaving and put that onto a ballot paper.

    Do you want to leave the EU under these terms [ ]
    Remain in the EU [ ]

    I cannot see having more than a binary choice on a referendum. Of course the issue all along is that Leave cannot agree on the terms to leave on; other than some mythical deal the EU will give us with everything we asked for.
     
  3. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,504


    That is what happens when people have kids but a Tory government enforces austerity to cut taxes for the rich.

    Don't like the duration then vote for s party that will increase funding for the NHS and GPs.
     
  4. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,792

    Location: Oxfordshire

    Other parties would increase the amount of income tax I have to pay, so that's a "no".

    The income tax paid by the extra people should cover the GP services those people require.
     
  5. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 17,021

    So instead of paying for it, you instead pay for the resulting aftermath anyway, and get rewarded with a less stable country.

    Claps.

    Your benign reason is why the government is haemorrhaging money on idealogical projects that will cost us far more than just solving it today. Hope you feel it’s worth it.
     
  6. Royal Fleet

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 21, 2007

    Posts: 791

    Location: Fleet, Hampshire

    The evidence I have seen is that immigrants (as a whole) do pay more in taxes than they take in services. (source - The Economist). Same evidence also suggests that they have not taken jobs that UK people would have otherwise had (through net job creation), but there is some evidence that the influx of new workers has suppressed wage growth.
     
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,504


    So you don't like the level of service but don't want to pay for a better service.

    The immigtants are only helping the economics of this .EU migration pay far more in taxes and use far less resources and benefits that British citizens.

    Any form of Brexit will only make this far worse. There will be far less tax revenue but much higher operating expenses. You are going to have to pay much higher taxes on a smaller salary or simply forgo public health at all
     
  8. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,791

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Spot on. So the question is why didn't the government do this.
    Why didn't they spend it on schools, NHS, GPs etc that had more demand because of rising population

    The answer is as i have said before, they took the increased taxes and used it to reduce the deficit. Whilst allowing the right wing to blame the immigrants for the strain.
     
  9. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,504


    Actually the evidence is there isn't even an effect on wages. There is possibly a slight downward pressure in some specific job markets but there isn't even strong statistical evidence of that
     
  10. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,791

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    I specifically didnt mention housing as thats I believe a different matter, but is made worse by immgration.

    What we are seeing is the end game of Thatchers allowing social housing to be sold off and no more (or very limited) built.

    When you put the supply into the hands of the private developers they will naturally try to keep this a bit supressed, the more the difference between supply and demand the bigger the profits per house for them.
    As supply of land is limited they are in no rush to build more for less profit per acre.
    Whats missing is the social housing competition, private houses should be semi aspirational, but thats not to say that social housing shouldnt exist.

    Its practically impossible to square the circle of very expensive housing and having labour rates that are globally competitive.
    The EU actually protects us in this respect, they (we) are large enough to be able to be protectionist.
    Its partly why us leaving is a wet dream for the likes of JRM, we are really going to struggle to maintain our relative prosperity. When it all starts to go wrong the rich will be able to jump in and buy property cheap (kind of happened after the financial crash).
     
  11. Royal Fleet

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 21, 2007

    Posts: 791

    Location: Fleet, Hampshire

    Economist Link which in turn references a Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) report.
     
  12. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,791

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Actually a more recent study has identified some limited impact. 5% over a fairly long period (14 years) for unskilled.
    This was subject to a BBC reality check, but their source is mainly the below doc.

    https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/741926/Final_EEA_report.PDF

    Edit, the reality check article
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729
     
  13. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,792

    Location: Oxfordshire

    Well I emailed the guys responsible for providing another GP (Oxfordshire CCG) and they said people could get appointments easily therefore there's no problem, basically just a lie.
    At the same time, there are proposals for a new GP which keep getting rejected by the local council because the plans are speshul, e.g. not providing any parking spaces.

    So basically, incompetence, but at the level of whoever is making poor plans, and at the CCG. It doesn't even get as far as the government afaik.
     
  14. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,125

    Indeed, the Maybot said some of the £20Bn for the NHS would come out of taxation, the rest would come out of the Brexit dividend, so that means the whole lot will come out of extra taxation.
     
  15. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,125

    Indeed, it all comes back to the point that every person's job is valuable to society as a whole and some of these crap but necessary jobs are low paid and society has to recognise this and provide social housing for these people. Other countries have low rental unlimited term conditions which works out as the same thing.
    Developers are sitting on land banks reducing supply to keep up profits.
    Scotland has ended the Thatcher madness and has been building social housing for a number of years but it will takes decades to fix the problem.
     
  16. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,504


    This is the report I was referring to actually


    I believe one of the markets negatively effect was unskilled builders that saw perhaps a 5% reduction in wages due to immigration, but other studies didn't find definite conclusions and the statistics of it are complex because the larger increase in EU migration recently has occurred during the financial crisis which heavily effected the building market.
     
  17. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,791

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Yep there is also the BOE one (linked as well in the BBC article) which is quite a hard read as its very dry.
    This again confirms the small but difficult to prove conclusion.
    But, both highlight that other factors are more significant so its really not something become hung up on.
    Such as minimum wage which has increased dramatically over that period.
     
  18. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 30,547

    Location: Co Durham

    Not sure what "Unskilled construction" workers refer to as our "lowest skilled" workers who are just flag layers have had 5%-10% pay rises for the last 6 years and now earn £31k per annum and we are based in the North East.

    I could teach anybody how to lay flags so they really are the lowest of the low as far as our workers go.
     
  19. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 30,547

    Location: Co Durham

    Your see that's the problem then. No immigration but a lack of our Government choosing to give tax cuts instead of investing in infrastructure and housing.

    If all the immigrants weren't here doing the jobs we didn't want to do then a few things would happen. Our economy would be much smaller and hence tax intakes would be less and we would have to pay more for people to do jobs such as fruit and veg picking and social care so we would all have to pay more tax.

    The only difference would be is that people wouldn't be able to blame immigration.

    Would be much better is tax rates hadn't fallen for last 10+ years and we had spent on infrastructure.
     
  20. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,792

    Location: Oxfordshire

    Depends what bracket you're in. A lot of people are in the 40% bracket who shouldn't be, due to bracket creep.
    From my perspective I'm paying more tax than ever, and services are worse than ever.