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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'SC Archive' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

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  1. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 3,832

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    Very true, people work very hard to ensure they can't be wrong, because being wrong feels crap. At this point I wonder how many really care about sovereignty and democracy and how many only care about "winning", even sub-conciously. Hopefully it's not as many as it feels like, but given that even I, as a pretty moderate individual, can feel myself hardening to the other side of the debate, I suspect it's fairly wide spread.
     
  2. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,552

    Because various members of parliament are still putting career and party before country and don't (currently) have the guts to revoke without the justification of another referendum. However, it seems likely that this will change if it comes to the crunch and the choice is literally crash out of the EU tomorrow with no deal (and spend years sorting out the consequences) or revoke.

    No one knows because the nature of Brexit was not defined before the referendum and there was no subsequent consultation to explore the options and find out what people actually wanted.
     
  3. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,727

    Johnson never wanted Brexit (see his face the morning after the referendum). He only chose that side to support because the thought it would do his career good, and bit off more than he could chew. Just like in his biography on Churchill (who he claims only opposed the Nazis because it would benefit his political career to do the opposite of what everyone else was doing), Boris planned to be a plucky failure, but set himself up to run for the Tory leadership, after claiming he'd done all he could to pass a once in a lifetime vote, but now it's time to move on with him as leader, and the country remaining in the EU.

    Boris knows staying in the EU is the best position. He knows that he's going to have the same poisoned chalice as Maybot if he takes the leadership now. He is no more a Leaver than May was, but he's going to struggle through and fail in the same way that she did, because that's where he has made his bed. Like Farage, Boris is only in it for himself. He'll only turn around when he sees more benefit in doing so than sticking with the impossible Brexit unicorn.
     
  4. Scrutinize

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 4, 2003

    Posts: 7,326

    I'm asking a question not making a statement.

    So far no-one has explained why 1) they triggered it in the first place and 2) why they haven't revoked it.

    Just lots of reasons given around it being an undemocratic vote and statements that they can legally revoke it.
     
  5. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,552

    I've previously likened it to a drug addiction or membership of a cult where people try to pretend they are not harming themselves. Reality intrudes and they seem to be seeing reason and breaking free, but then have a relapse and vote for the Brexit Party because it's much less painful to retreat back to convincing yourself that you were right all along.

    Or to quote Al Pacino:

     
  6. Scrutinize

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 4, 2003

    Posts: 7,326

    The vote was pretty binary, leave or remain.

    That was the nature of it.

    The pro brexit sentiment of the voters was they just wanted to leave.
     
  7. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 3,832

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    1. Because the pitch they were sold by the government called for a soft Brexit they could actually support. This changed rather sharply.

    2. Because at this stage in the process they are weighing up the damage to their careers. People are still working out if there is an acceptable way forward. If there is they get to partially safeguard the Country and protect their majorities. If it becomes clear it's hard Brexit or nothing then they will revoke. Things aren't quite bad enough yet.

    Ed. Actually a bit more complex than that. Labour won't revoke until its clear they wont get a GE. Soft brexiters won't revoke until it's clear they wont get a soft Brexit. 2nd voters wont revoke until its clear they wont get a 2nd ref.
     
  8. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,972

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    Because the Tory party are still, after all this time, treating it as a popularity contest and competition headoff within their own party.
     
  9. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,383

    Triggering it means nothing more than starting the actual negotiations. Since then they have been trying to negotiate some kind of deal the Tory Party(mainly) would vote for. That is where they are now, pausing to pass the poisoned chalice to another. The new PM will try something but it is limited what they can do. In the end Parliament may revoke it when all else has failed.
    You are getting hung up on triggering Art 50, it only means we will start negotiations, nothing else.
     
  10. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,552

    That is patently untrue. This ground has been covered a number of times, but to give a couple of examples:

    1) Some people voted for Brexit expressly as a protest against David Cameron and the Tory/establishment elite rather than from any particular desire to leave the EU. I know several people that admit they did this not expecting Leave to actually win.

    2) Some people voted for Brexit based on false reasons as their issues relate entirely to the UK government (in particular Tory austerity) and not to the UK membership of the EU.

    3) Some people did want to get the UK out of greater political union but still wanted to stay in the single market and customs union

    4) Some people presumably wanted a complete break from the EU and to pretend that it no longer exists

    5) Some people didn't care about the details of Brexit and just wanted to be told that immigration was being stopped/significantly reduced
     
  11. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,122

    Whatever the reasons they voted, they voted to leave.

    If we had a 2 year debate every time we voted for something we would never get anywhere.
     
  12. FishFluff

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 5,189

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    But ‘leave’ is meaningless. What type of ‘leave’ did everyone vote for?
     
  13. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,122

    Leave as in leave I guess. Not leave, but...

    That wasn't an option.

    What we do AFTER leaving is something else. We never got a vote on joining in the first place.
     
  14. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,883

    Location: Midlands

    'Leave' is just so open-ended, it really hurts to think about how people try to put everyone in the same category.
     
  15. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,383

    This mess has shown that the UK is not sophisticated enough for direct democracy like Switzerland and we will not repeat it for another fifty years at least.
     
  16. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,883

    Location: Midlands

    People absolutely voted for different things. The miscommunication was endless and overwhelming - so many people I know who voted for customs unions, and free movement, and the £350mil for NHS. They did not vote for redundancies, chlorinated chicken, further austerity, fascist uprising, xenophobia, racism or private healthcare.
     
  17. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,456

    Location: London

    The UK is deeply entangled with the EU economically, legally, financially, educationally, socially and even culturally. Leaving isn't as easy as flipping a switch. If you think it is, you need to go and do some research into exactly what's involved, or actually read some of the many posts here that have explained it. You'll find that even with a totally competent government, full Parliamentary backing and the full support of business and the public, it was never going to be a simple process. Without those .... well here we are.
     
  18. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,122

    We're going to end up with some those things if we stay in the EU eventually as well. We already have some of them. Austerity was being pushed by the EU.
     
  19. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,883

    Location: Midlands

    Maybe Fascist uprising, but the others? No chance.
     
  20. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,547

    Location: Cambridge

    I admit the xenophobia seems to be a given.
     
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