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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,449

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Surely the core of this problem is respecting democracy isn't it. If a country votes to leave they should be able to leave shouldn't they? It can't only be OK if the vote goes one way.
     
  2. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,648

    No the problem is they cannot find a way to implement it through our sovereign Parliament.
     
  3. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,135

    How can you have democracy when it's an advisory, illegal referendum, with no supermajority, interference from Russia, overspend and propaganda by Leave? It's not democratic to support a false outcome.

    If you want to respect democracy, you should be supporting a new referendum. You can't just claim democracy when it suits you, and ignore all the anti-democratic things that happened to get us where we are now.
     
  4. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,613

    Location: Essex

    I agree...

    The core of the problem is that Brexiters are trying to undermine democracy by preventing the people from being asked again, now that the previous vote was found to have contained among other things, an illegal 10% overspend that only resulted in a 1.8% swing.

    If you genuinely believe in democracy, then you have to concede that another referendum is an absolute necessity under these circumstances.

    If not, then it's not democracy you care about, it's just Brexit.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  5. Jono8

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 20, 2007

    Posts: 27,965

    Location: Surrey

  6. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,449

    Location: West Sussex, England

    But the majority of parliament voted to trigger Art.50 is that undemocratic?
     
  7. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,449

    Location: West Sussex, England

    The majority of parliament was elected on pro Brexit manifestos too.
     
  8. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,135

    The fruit of the poison tree. The "mandate" they had was illegal, and I doubt it's what a legally run referendum today would come up with.
     
  9. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,449

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Their mandate was standing on pro Brexit manifestos in the 2017 GE so let me understand are you also saying the 2017 GE was illegal too?
     
  10. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,135

    Their mandate for Brexit was based on an illegal referendum.

    Are you saying that if there was another (legally run) referendum, and Remain wins, that the current government should go through with Brexit because of their previous stance in a previous GE based on an illegal, advisory referendum that was interfered with by foreign powers?
     
  11. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,449

    Location: West Sussex, England

    But there are no plans for another referendum. Secondly, if the electorate wanted to remain perhaps they should have returned a Lib Dem government in the 2017 GE.
     
  12. Trifid

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Feb 18, 2006

    Posts: 8,138

    This springs to mind as to why that is a useless argument... https://youtu.be/chFaesfO7fQ it was also conducted at a time when we all had no idea what brexit meant other then useless anecdotes like "brexit means brexit". And to be honest, do we know what brexit means even today, 3 months after we were meant to leave?
     
  13. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 19,623

    Location: London

    Apt or South Park's douche or turd. Vote mother ******!

    Just voted, lost all hope.
     
  14. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,135

    There should be, and I suspect likely will be, as it's the only way out of the current situation in lieu of any strong politicians in Parliament, as there is no way forwards for Brexit. It's now 2019, and people have changed their minds.

    The only way to move forwards is to go back to the people, as it's obvious Parliament cannot come up with a solution of their own as they are more interested in their own party politics than in the interests of the country.
     
  15. norm

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 21, 2003

    Posts: 4,827

    I'm genuinely interested, at what point would remainers renounce ties with the EU, what would it actually take? E.g. forced introduction of the euro, exorbitant membership fees, european army?
     
  16. grudas

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2008

    Posts: 19,993

    Location: West sussex

    Surely at a point where it would benefit UK and people who live here? Why in the hell would anyone want to make their life worse?
     
  17. chrismscotland

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 16, 2009

    Posts: 2,188

    Things were different 2 years ago (at the 2017 GE), no-one yet knew just what a complete mess this was going to be at that point, hell May had barely said much aside from her "Lancaster House" speech and 2 years later has done nothing but U-turn and renege on that as the process has turned to shambles.

    In 2017 there were certainly people who at that point were optimistic about the possible benefits and there was little to no talk of the more extreme WTO Brexit that the ERG bang on about now.
     
  18. Tweek_1984

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 11, 2002

    Posts: 3,610

    Location: Carlisle, England

    Sorry, but this is poppycock.

    We've had the referendum. What do we need another one for? So the remoaners can squeak a win? Then what? Best out of three? Get real.

    If the first result isn't honoured it will be a betrayal of democracy and we'll have a real civil problem.

    If people want another referendum, fair enough, but it must come after we've exited the EU.
     
  19. chrismscotland

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 16, 2009

    Posts: 2,188

    The thing is that under our current membership the Army we could veto anyway and Euro we have a legal binding opt out - membership fees again presumably we would have had to have had a vote on that, albeit I suspect that would be an issue requiring a majority not unanimity.
    I personally don't have any real issue with closer Military ties, the USA has proven itself to be an unreliable and unstable partner not just under Trump but also under Obama's second term when he really didn't want to get involved overseas.

    The UK military on its own is a shambles compared to what it was 20 years ago, billions spaffed on 2x floating targets (The Carriers) should have been spent on upgrading the RAF, Army and the workhorse ships of the Navy, Frigates and Destroyers.

    Better EU co-operation could help to make sure that a better balance of capabilities is obtained across the continent with shared defence instead of every member state going off and doing their own thing, especially in these current times with a USA that doesn't look that interested and a frisky looking Russia and China.

    That said you could just as well replace "EU" with "NATO" in that statement and get the same type of co-operation.
     
  20. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!


    Well said that man.