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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,442

    I'm speaking about what actually happened, you're speculating about what could have happened. There's only one of us handwaving reality away here.

    The Lib Dems got my vote twice, but never again. They are an utter waste of a vote.
     
  2. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 4,179

    I agree a far right party would hold biggoted views, I accept I wrote far right instead of hard right in one of my sentences.

    But being hard right is far more than economic policy, a hard right government would restrict workers rights, lower environmental protections, restrict consumer rights, restrict human rights, relax safety regulations etc. Like I said just wait for true hard right politician to get into number 10 in Brexit Britain, it's literally their wet dream and all of us will be screwed.

    New Labour was not a Tory government :rolleyes:....
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,691

    You saying Tony Blair was left wing? Cause thats hilarious.
     
  4. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,120

    Well, as I used to say at the time to wind up my Labour activist buddies, Blair's New Labour was just the acceptable face of a Tory Britain.
     
  5. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,357

    seems the tory leader candidates are just trying to wow brexit voters as they think the way to be popular is to force through brexit even if a no deal, wow.
     
  6. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,357

    the referendum is out dated now. Doesnt represent current views. Also I think a lot of people will put party loyalty ahead of brexit views in a GE.

    Labour with a remain policy in my view would win a decent majority in a GE, with a leave policy they would struggle to get in with a coalition.
     
  7. i know nothing

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 6, 2004

    Posts: 3,141

    Location: Socialist Hell

  8. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,452

    You'd think with that sort of polling they'd welcome a 2nd referendum so they could settle the argument over what sort of leave people voted for 3 years ago, win a referendum on leaving without a deal and you now have a mandate from the people that says they want to leave without any agreements in place, nobody could argue with that.
     
  9. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,691

    There's a (for whatever dumb reason) unfinished poll (lacks smaller polling parties, but tbh you can just use a baseline and it'll fit anyway) that Delta has done for Mail on Sunday showing Labour on 24% and BP on 22%, giving Labour more than 250 seats.

    Just goes to show this is entirely up in the air.

    Electoral calculus says that Libs get 30 seats and flavible says 72, so it would appear the Tory-LD-BP heavy areas are going to be extremely fluid.
     
  10. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    While this is true, it's still absolutely the case that the LDs enabled the Tories. They were a lot stronger then and they could have hamstrung the worst of the Tory policies if they had wished. Instead they dived in headfirst and even betrayed their own plank policies to do it. Nick Clegg was offered the core manifesto pledge of no increases to student fees free and clear, but he turned it down. His party voted for the benefit cuts that have killed thousands in exchange for a 5p surcharge on carrier bags. Their commitment to Remain may appear admirable, but their track record shows that they would vote for No Deal Brexit if it got them into a coalition. They cannot be trusted and should not be voted for.
     
  11. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    Congratulations, you've just identified every single reason why the Eurosceptic Tories want to leave the EU.
     
  12. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,764

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    No, it does not. Not every last policy under the coalition government was hard right, but the overall program of government absolutely was.

    Accepting climate change or not is not really a left/right issue. While government funding of science is a left/right issue, there's no reason that accepting scientific evidence should be divided along the main part of the spectrum (the extreme at either end are a different matter). The only reason we think it that this is a left/right issue is a quirk of US politics, and the US has a political spectrum well to the right of the UK so comparisons between the countries on whether issues are left or right are not particularly useful.

    That said, while Cameron talked about the "greenest government ever", the coalition tried to push through reductions in solar funding so extreme they were thrown out by the courts, supported fracking, and cut taxes on North Sea Oil. Hardly taking climate change seriously, is it? Cameron even referred to wanting wanting to get rid of that green crap. It's true the Lib Dems probably stopped the Tories assault on on-shore wind happening earlier.

    The governments actions towards the disabled are, and were, abusive. As is their treatment of immigrants, and especially the members of the Windrush generation. This is not hyperbole, it's straightforward fact. People are suffering, losing their homes, starving, and dying because of the coalition government's policies. The incredible human cost of coalition's petty cruelty is well documented. I don't imagine that they particularly intended this, I think it's more that they think it's an acceptable cost, or are simply too incompetent to find out what is actually happening. Cameron, remember, was so utterly clueless that he wrote to his local council to complain about the consequences of his own policies.

    Assuming that a policy would have been administered in the same manner under Labour and the Coalition is nonsense. The problem isn't the principle, as such, its the implementation.
     
  13. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,764

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Anyway, I think this has meandered off-topic. Going back to topic:

    The Tory leadership now has a pro-referendum candidate: Sam Gyimah.

    Who? Er.... googles... oh dear... (emphasis mine)

    As Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation, Gyimah has warned that “there’s a culture of censorship in some of our universities" and that threats to freedom of speech were not "some right-wing conspiracy theory that had been made up". Some of the examples he has mentioned included a professor at King's College London who was allegedly reported for hate speech after teaching a history class, and a university's safe-space policy that took 20 minutes to read. In both cases, the universities in question reported that these things did not happen, and the Department for Education clarified later that Gyimah had merely relayed students' anecdotes.

    Well... I suppose at least he has a better Brexit policy :/
     
  14. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,883

    The polling doesn't suggest they'd get their way with a second referendum.

    The Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Plaid, and CHUK are all unambiguously Remain. Combined, they received 33% of the votes from those polled, versus 27% for BXP + UKIP. Then there's 39% of voters split between Labour and the Tories, whose views aren't made clear by this polling.

    If the Brexit Party win the next GE, it won't be because they have the overwhelming support of the nation. It will be because Remain supporters can't stop bickering with one another long enough to realise they need to work together.
     
  15. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,650

    Trump thinks we should go No Deal and let Farage do the negotiating. That should make the UK weak enough for his 'America First' policy.
     
  16. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,764

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    It's possible, but unlikely, that the Brexit Party will win the highest share of the vote in the next election, but this will not give them a majority of seats. Like Farage's earlier iteration as UKIP, they do not have the concentrated local support to convert votes into seats. The UK's defective voting system will keep them from power, unless there is a hung parliament in which the arithmetic means they can form a coalition with the Tories.
     
  17. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,442

    Absolutely this. The Lib Dems will be the champion of everything until the chips are down, at which point they will abandon it all for a go in the driving seat.

    My only alternative left was the SNP, but now they are pushing for another referendum on independence then I've lost them, too. With the majority of the country apparently eager to vote in a party with no history, no policy and no manifesto I might spoil my ballot for the first time.
     
  18. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,934

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    Or alternatively, since you seem to be arguing your position based on what could have happened, voters would have respected the Lib Dems for not getting in bed with the Tories and swing voters would no longer see Lib-Dem as a pointless vote. That could easily have seen the maths go the other way.
     
  19. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,883

    The poll in question suggests that BXP would fall 20 short of a majority, with the Tories reduced to 26 seats. There's a potential government there.
     
  20. JRS

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 6, 2004

    Posts: 13,547

    Location: Burton-on-Trent