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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,933

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    Most of whom I imagine are already remainers. The number of leave voters who will see this is probably as it won't get shared outside of remain supporters social media echo chambers.
     
  2. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,504

    Location: Midlands

    Which is a moot point - whilst I try to be objective and fact-driven, most Leave-voters just put the blinkered shutters down and come up with 10 reasons why (in this case) Tony Blair is a self-serving liar who wants to diminish their UK. Hypocrisy knows no bounds!!
     
  3. matt100

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2004

    Posts: 11,147

    Location: Salisbury

    You'll know I'm roughly on your side in this debate but I have to say your tone is exactly the sort of thing that will just keep the division as strong as ever.

    If you're going to change someone's mind you need to first agree with them or at least not tell them they're stupid.

    Back in the mists of 2016 there were at least on paper sensible reasons to leave, I think there may still be the beginnings of those ideas.. now we've spent 3 years telling each other we're stupid the chances of anyone changing their minds are pretty much nil.

    You might think you're fact driven, that's because you agree with yourself and your sources.
     
  4. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,121

    The Tories literally don't care. They're not going to be in power much longer anyway - technically they're not in power now - and their base is dying off because it turns out that when your sole plan is to make sure the people who were your base in 1978 have all the money, no new people sign up to your party. This is their last chance to pillage everything and make themselves as rich as possible, and they will take it to the fullest extent.
     
  5. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,121

    Let's not make Breaking Bad jokes of this kind, it suggests that this sort of thing isn't real.
     
  6. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,504

    Location: Midlands

    I have honestly tried fact, evidence and intelligible debate many times across many platforms over the past 3 years and it reaches a point where some people can only communicate based on who shouts the loudest or is the most brash. I've been accused of allsorts of things by simply try to lay down a structured discussion - snob, spoilt, posh, looking down on them with my posh words etc.

    I believe that everyone has made their minds up well and truly for good now - look at how thenewoc and others have been blown out of the water time and time again, yet they ignore the evidence disproving their thoughts/stance/'facts', and just continue to spout evangelical rhetoric.
     
  7. Kutter

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 22, 2009

    Posts: 4,276

    Location: Georgia, USA

    you really dont want the US system of Health insurance. Think your covered, then you get the bill and they have messed it up and it takes forever to sort it out. They give you an aspirin at the ER, thats $500 per pill. Then you goto the dentist and they tell you you need so and so work and its covered by your insurance, then you get the bill and find out you owe $2k because, ohh it wasn't covered. etc etc etc.

    It really is a horrible system, you pay $100 a week then still have to pay $240 per doctors visit out of pocket etc.
     
  8. ltron

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 30, 2014

    Posts: 1,294

    Indeed, it's amazing that some want to give up our free at the point of use system for the American one where medical bankruptcy is rife, people lose everything and get worse health outcomes and many are not even covered at all resulting in many more avoidable deaths and strain on the welfare state and other public services. If you want private health insurance you can still get it in this country, these things are not mutually exclusive.
     
  9. tamzzy

    Sgarrista

    Joined: May 26, 2012

    Posts: 9,144

    @Kutter i was being deliberately obtuse. :)
    Although i really wouldn't mind the pay rise (my friend that works as an internal medicine attending gets $350k pa base pay - which is a hell load more than the pay in the uk as a consultant)...I really wouldn't like to see the US style insurance based system here.
    There's going to be a lot of upset people if that ever happened.
    or probably not, because they'd be dead or dying. i guess it's brexiteers thinking that's one way to reduce the "overcrowding" in the uk...
    #willofthepeople
     
  10. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,011

    Yes, I think we've all experienced that sequence of events where we post a fact-based study that highlights a flaw in the Brexiteer position, only to be told, "You dumb Remoaners need to stop insulting people!"

    Anyway... Just in case anyone thought Trump was any different from any other Brexiteer and was going to be able to help deliver up those Brexit unicorns...

    Think again...
     
  11. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: Aug 7, 2003

    Posts: 38,550

    Location: Aberdeenshire

    So no chlorinated chicken and NHS sell off that people keep saying we’re getting?
     
  12. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,011

    Quite. Even the Brexiteer plans to get a quick-&-dirty US trade deal by flogging off our NHS and food standards are going to prove (yet again) beyond them.

    Every single promise & aspiration they have just turns to dog-**** in their hands. It's comedy gold.
     
  13. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,933

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    I can kind of see you point, but what were the sensible reasons to leave? Things were only ever going to play out the way they have. Despite what leavers said, there was no way the EU would give us a deal better than what we had already and our red lines made anything else impossible! I don't think leave voters are necessarily stupid, but they definitely heard what they wanted to hear and agreed without applying too much thought to it...
     
  14. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,447

    Putting a border down the Irish sea would let us get our hands on cheaper food, clothing and footwear while selling off the NHS but we can't do that without upsetting the DUP, if we upset them they'll probably vote against us in a VONC and that puts Brexit at risk of a 2nd referendum or worse yet a Corbyn government, it's a classic catch-22 situation.
     
  15. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    Putting a border down the Irish Sea no more respects the good friday agreement than putting one on the island of Ireland.
     
  16. Harlequin

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 17, 2004

    Posts: 2,930

    Location: Eastbourne , East Sussex.


    Cant see a problem with Corbyn - as a Socialist he wouldn't sell the NHS and reduce taxes further for the 1%. Hammond attacked the UN yesterday ` I cant see millions living in poverty in the UK` - maybe get out of your mansion then.....
     
  17. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,447

    AFAIK there's nothing in the GFA that mentions a border down the Irish sea, in fact there's already one there.
    Tell that to any Conservative MP, i think they believe he'll grow horns and tucks his arrow tipped tail into his trousers each morning. ;)
     
  18. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    The principle of the gfa is that the people of Northern Ireland can be British, Irish or both without undue impediment. As they were already British citizens, and there was already no border down the sea (don't confuse security checks for travel with a border, they aren't the same thing at all) the implementation of the agreement focused on opening up the land border and additional rights to gain irish citizenship.

    As such, introducing a legal border in the Irish Sea is just as much of a breach of the principles as one on the land is. Some want to focus on not breaching the implementation, but that kind of misses the point.

    The only borders that would meet the principle of the gfa are either borders in both the sea and the land, or a border around the whole of the uk and Ireland, or just remaining in the eu.
     
  19. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    You can't see the problem with an antisemite who is also living in the past and totally economically illiterate? Not to mention running the party as his own personal cult where loyalty to the leader are more important than actions?
     
  20. Harlequin

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 17, 2004

    Posts: 2,930

    Location: Eastbourne , East Sussex.

    Friedman wanted LVT , in fact Thatcher did as well un till her backers turned the screw. Which particular economic policies do you think are illiterate then? As for anti-Semitic, how about the right wing being islamophobic and BXP being run as a personal cult to Farage or the Tories falling apart as to who gets into bed with Farage and his populists first?