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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,933

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    Up to a point though. Under Boris' plans I'd be getting more money. I'm already sorted for material goods and don't need a house upgrade. The extra cash will probably go into savings and it's the same situation with a lot of my colleagues. I don't need more 'stuff' or have the ability to go on more holidays. What I need is for the idea of 'society' to still be a thing. Stuff like knowing that my house isn't going to get robbed or that if I get ill, I'll have healthcare.
     
  2. Martini1991

    Caporegime

    Joined: Sep 18, 2009

    Posts: 27,272

    Location: Dormanstown.


    What about the higher national insurance he's wanting to out in?
    Going to affect the poorest
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    LUL roar with the tax cut lie again, emulating the US by adding hundreds of billions to the deficit is not a smart idea.

    Moaned for ages about Labour and the deficit and now suddenly doesnt care because "LOOOOOOOOOOOOL tax cut".
     
  4. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,504

    Location: Midlands

    How ridiculous can you actually get?

    The bare-faced idiocy of this man is incredible. Literally teetering on the edge of another recession - further damaging millions of citizens and their prospects/lives, and he is offering to cut income tax to the middle/higher earners. What does he think will happen? These people will reinvest this cash in products/produce to cancel out the billions of further debt it generates?
     
  5. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,040

    Good points.

    For the record, I'm no fan of Corbyn; I was just interested in whether Caracus believed a Labour government would enable some of his more radical socialist ideas. I suppose it would depend on the type of MPs that were selected and the kind of manifesto the NEC would be prepared to back.

    So while Corbyn and members of his front bench may well have socialist tendencies (or more than just tendencies) — do you think that even with a Labour government in power we would end up with a Socialist UK?
     
  6. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 4,170

    Not only that cutting income tax but increasing national insurance increases taxation on earned income but decreases it on unearned income.

    People with significant unearned income tend to have a huge amount of wealth because it tends to come from savings, investments, dividends, rental income etc.

    Most middle or lower earners have very little or no unearned income at all.
     
  7. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,336

    maybe but seems a question was missing

    it maybe she wants brexit but also that brexit for her is a low priority policy and the green's other policies take precedence?
     
  8. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,336

    tories seem to be heading to the extreme right, scares the hell out of me to be honest.

    gate crashing our of europe with no deal and massive 80k threshold for upper tax, absolute insanity. 9 billion a year thrown away in tax revenue if they do that.
     
  9. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 3,136

    No, what he thinks will happen is that the Tory membership would like a tax cut and will vote him in as PM. The rest he couldn't give a flying **** about.

    One nation conservatism, if it actually ever existed is long dead. The ordinary voter would be best off remembering that.
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    [​IMG]

    70% top kek. Mind you it's doubtless not analytical as i dont see how it could be, but still.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  11. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 2,688

    This is where you have to be very careful about lowering which taxes, where and under which circumstances. The US since the late 1970’s has seen income growth stop tracking productivity growth and inequality grow rapidly. Simplifying and cutting some taxes works well, in other cases it only benefits a very small section of society, and the same is true for raising taxes. Most economists now suggest if you want to see the trickle down effect in action lie under a cow.
     
  12. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 19,623

    Location: London

    I can't say trickle down economics have gone down too well in America - what we're on the 3rd iteration now? Trump tax cuts.....
    • They haven't paid for themselves
    • Stock buybacks/corporate profits at record highs
    • Corporate tax take down (lowest since Eisenhauer)
    • $2tn added to the debt
    • Deficit massively increased
    • As is stands - 85% of the tax cuts will go to the top 1% after 10 years, those earning <$75k will get a tax increase after 10 years
    • Wages are enjoying a good uptick but much lower when adjusted for inflation (still following a long term trend of stagnation, 1.2% in 2018 adjusted)
    [​IMG]

    It didn't work with Bush Senior, Junior, nor Trump. Or Kansas!!!!
     
  13. pmc25

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2010

    Posts: 2,153

    None of them will offer large tax cuts if they become Prime Minister. The only vaguely feasible one that's been mooted so far is Gove replacing VAT (if we leave the EU) with a lower tax, as increase in spending would likely be very significant ... but there'd almost certainly still need to be clawback from elsewhere as well.

    The tax cuts being talked about are to appeal to the Tory members who will potentially elect them. Come actual leadership / general election manifesto they will completely disappear. The ongoing burden of the debt incurred by Labour's profligacy and the financial crisis & aftermath, together with Brexit simply don't allow for the risk of major tax cuts (if they don't hugely stimulate the economy).

    If we didn't have a gigantic debt pile (with very weak Sterling) and Brexit wasn't looming, then my view would likely be very different about the desirability and effectiveness of potentially major tax cuts.
     
  14. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    Economy has contracted by 0.5% btw over the last couple months, so thats cool that we're talking about reducing taxes.
     
  15. pmc25

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2010

    Posts: 2,153

    Gove's ideas about lower VAT / newer lower sales tax, assuming we leave, might not be a bad idea in the case of recession or continual stagnation. Simply because it's likely to have the largest stimulatory effect on spending and the economy generally.

    It might well be a lot cheaper than other ways of trying to prevent a crash. Certainly a lot simpler.

    But of course, we could just cancel Brexit. That wouldn't cost anything and would be massively stimulatory ...
     
  16. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965

    Lower tax-rates is only benefit to the economy long term when the tax-cuts apply only to the lowest income earners. When people have very little disposable income they physically cannot buy many goods or use many services. Given them an extra 100-100 a month and they can buy more. Someone earning 100K a year, give them an extra 2-5K and it makes very little difference to what they will or wont buy. Also, obviously they are also far more people earning median wage than under than those in the top 5%.. There are then a load of secondary effects related to health, depression, stress and productivity that all help when low income workers have more money at the end of the month.

    What also is positive for the economy is government spending on infrastructure, education, health and transport. When the higher income earners pay more tax and a responsible government is in place then the economy can boom. The Tories are quite keen on the opposite; Austerity has had an incredibly destructive effect on the economy.
     
  17. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,965


    probably false going by the last election. Labour didn;t just gain students, they gained voters across the entire demographic.
     
  18. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    Will be temporary at best, debt levels are worse than pre-recession levels as it is and this will likely just push a recession closer, less VAT would be cool to me, but it's not going to fix the fundamental issues with this economy.

    You can't just jigger a single number and think "job done".
     
  19. pmc25

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 24, 2010

    Posts: 2,153

    Not quite sure how you work that out, re: pushing a recession closer.

    Cutting sales tax is just about the most stimulatory thing you can do - more so than lowering interest rates (assuming they were more than nominal in the first place - which they have been for years now).

    Regardless, I'm amazed the various candidates haven't been beating the inheritance tax drum. That goes over well with the membership, cost of abolishing it would be minimal, and there might be a net gain to economy as the elderly and middle aged middle class would no longer have to make Byzantine and restrictive financial arrangements. Also, unlike the other tax cuts being mooted (except VAT cut), it would explicitly not be for the rich or super rich ... inheritance tax may have been originally designed to fall on the supremely wealthy landed gentry or industrialists, but it falls almost solely on the middle class now.
     
  20. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    People will spend more money yes and for a time it will be lovely self-pat on the back for the Tories, but it wont stop what's coming and it will lead to people spending even more of what they dont have. It's a false hope.

    It will do literally nothing in the end for the high street, housing issues, long term government budgets. Stimulation is just not enough. You can lube up a turd, but it's still a turd.