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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'SC Archive' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

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  1. Tony Edwards

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    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 4,833

    You have to wonder what else is being discussed as fact in the brexit echo chamber.

    Well I say wonder but it is posted here repeatedly only to be rebuked without those that posted it willing to respond to the rebuking and then reposted sometime later when they think rational people have forgotten it.
     
  2. BowdonUK

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    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 3,846

    I was listening to the latest Boris interview on LBC and the question was put to him about how will he get the EU to change its position. He bluffed his way through the question. But it got me thinking.

    Considering there was no negotiation, that the EU just accepted what May had proposed, why do people think the EU won't move?

    I can understand the EU trying to hang on to the deal as its good for them, May give them the final decision, which is why the hardline Brexiteers don't like it.

    The EU itself offered us a free trade deal and as said that in the event of a no deal there are other solutions to the Irish border. Their deal offered seems better than the May deal on the table.

    Also it shows the low level of news media today that they are focusing on Boris, when Hunt as taken a much stronger line on walking away from the table by October 31st. Why isn't he getting even half the pressure about his position? He's flying under the radar.
     
  3. VincentHanna

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    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 21,329

    What are you talking about? that deal was after 2 ½ years of negotiations.
     
  4. BowdonUK

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    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

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    It was May's deal she offered to the EU. Nobody had any input, even her own cabinet. The EU had already offered a free trade deal yet May rejected it and put forward her deal, which was more favourable to the EU than their own deal was.
     
  5. robgmun

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    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 15,933

    Location: London

    Indeed, what i don't get is that people aren't seeing that the EU saying "It won't move" is part of the negotiation. As soon as Boris says, fine, seeya on the 31st Oct without your £39billion, you'll soon here a "Wait, wait, wait, come back don't be so rash" from the EU

    They are desperate for the money.
     
  6. BowdonUK

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    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 3,846

    I agree. The media cause a lot of these problems by setting up questions that would reveal our hand, so when the person interviewed declines to comment the media say "S/he has got no answers". It's school yard level journalism, and sadly some people believe it.
     
  7. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 15,919

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Is the "they need us more than we need them" narrative still kicking around? Really?

    We have had 2 years of negotiations. We dont have a "hand" to reveal, everyone on both sides are fully aware of what the other "has", its not poker.
     
  8. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,494

    It looks like the Govt hosts the text of the closing remarks of the Brexit Secretary made after each round of negotiations...

    Here's one from David Davis for example...

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...rth-round-of-eu-exit-negotiations-in-brussels

    Sample extract:

    It's just not the case - however hard the pro-Brexit press pushes the lie - that this deal was exclusively May's.
     
  9. garnett

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    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,494

    They've already said what will happen...

    Brexiteers all concede that the moment after we leave with no deal (and Brexiteers share a nanosecond of orgasmic sovereign freedom) straightaway the UK needs to turn back to the EU and ask about a trade deal.

    ... And the EU have said, over and over, their response will be, "Yes absolutely. You can have one...

    "...You just need to meet your obligations on the £39bn, the GFA, and EU citizen rights first..."

    And remember at that point, when, to a simple observer it might look like we're in the same mess we're in now, in actuality, it'll be worse. We'll have given up all the leverage we had as part of the UK's privileged EU membership+++ position.
     
  10. VincentHanna

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    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 21,329

    They'll be banging on about German cars next, even though Mercedes, BMW and VAG have already re-targeted other markets and the UK is dropping down in terms of importance.

    For instance, Mercedes sales decreased by 7% in the UK between 2017 and 2018, but they grew their market in Spain, Germany and China.
    https://www.daimler.com/investors/key-figures/major-markets/
     
  11. Tony Edwards

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    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 4,833

    Ah here we go. This must be the latest line put forward in the echo chamber.
    No negotiations and they are desperate for the money and will snatch a new deal out of our hands at the 11th hour. Good old Boris will sort it with Farages help.
     
  12. inogen

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    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 4,038

    Yeah, One of Johnson's advisors was on Newsnight last night saying the same line. Even backed it up with "the German motor industry...", it's like Groundhog day.
     
  13. BowdonUK

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    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 3,846

    I don't know why you belittle your points with sweeping generalisations.

    It seems anyone who merely questions the narrative put forward by the media is living in an echo chamber according to you?
     
  14. BowdonUK

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    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 3,846

    Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't David Davis removed from being the Brexit secretary? Any pretense of negotiation was for show as May removed Davis and put forward her own unnegotiated deal to the EU.

    As I said earlier, the EU offered us a free trade deal and we could have built on that. But no, May give them her complex deal that in the fine print meant the EU could control when we fully left. Why wouldn't the EU take her deal and hang on for dear life? That's what they are doing now. They will keep doing that until they realise that deal is void.

    I'm still not confident we'll leave on this October 31st date. I predict there will be a general election. There are 2 issues going on at the same time. The EU future deal, and the intransigence of the British parliament to back anything.
     
  15. b0rn2sk8

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    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 5,827

    He resigned over Mays plan for the future relationship.
     
  16. VincentHanna

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    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 21,329

    I'll correct you

    David Davis was made Brexit secrtary in July 2016 and resigned 2 years later.

    Dominic Raab was put in charge in July. Raab resigned in November 2018

    It was rumoured that Dominic Raab was called 'The Turnip' in Brussels because he was ****.
     
  17. Murphy

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    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 4,373

    No they're not, to even think that just demonstrates a utter lack of understand, £39bn makes up something like 0.6% of their annual revenue and it's an investment budget.

    This is a fact that's been repeated ad nauseam so why is it leave supporters seem so incapable of accepting it?
     
  18. BowdonUK

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    I stand corrected on that point :)
     
  19. JeditOjanen

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    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

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    Hunt's line on "walking away from the table" is that he'll preserve the Union rather than preserve Brexit, and that if it's no deal or no Brexit then we're staying in the EU. If the media have not reported on this, it's because they are desperate to support Boris by telling everyone that he will give us No Deal at all costs.
     
  20. garnett

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    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,494

    There's plenty of other statements for you to see how, after each round, both Davis and Raab said how much negotiating had got done, and how much progress had been made.

    I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise? Can you evidence your counter narrative at all?

    "May give them her complex deal" - this reads exactly how the pro-Brexit rags wanted their audiences to be left thinking.

    The common Brexiteer Demagogues' meme for the targets of their con-job, of, "There's no need to over-think it. Take it from us that it's easy" Brexit-means-Brexit, Leave-means-Leave, Let us do your thinking for you."

    Brexit is complicated. There's no getting around it. Simple solutions appeal to simple minds (and I expect this is a big factor in the appeal of "Just walk away" - the fact the utterance means an end to the speaker having to think about the problem).

    The idea that May somehow tried to dupe us into agreeing to be bound by the EU is ludicrous.

    Even ardent Brexiteers recognise theres no real getting away from the backstop. Why do you think Ress Mogg voted for May's Deal? Do you think he was complicit in your "Remainer Conspiracy"?
     
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