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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,094

    Isn't dodging tax compulsory in Switzerland? :D

    Not sure about tax specifically, but I spent a few weeks there some years ago and the general cost of living seemed decidedly expensive.
     
  2. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    Certain people on this forum like to throw about accusations about others... Saying things like they are 'selfish" and' utter scum'. I'm hardly above making strong accusations myself but if your are going to to level strong accusations yourself you might just want to expect some push back.

    So the Switzerland isn't outside of the EU accept that it is outside of the EU..... I think you may be confusing the EU with continental Europe.

    Outside of clown world these are not the same things.

    'Switzerland will remain a low-tax centre for big firms'

    If you read the rest of the article you will see that the cantons of Switzerland has made a habit of offering multinationals low tax deals.

    Guess what if multinationals are located in Swiss cantons paying taxes on money they didn't actually earn within the physical borders of Switzerland then that is an effective subsidy to the Swiss tax payer at the expense of other countries who lose corporation tax revenue by this method. At least the EU institutions that the Swiss have to partly abide by.... due to their relationship with the EU (whilst not being a part of it Strider....) have compelled the Swiss Cantons to stop the practice of deliberately offering multinationals specific low tax deals to cause them to move there so the new solution is just to offer universally low company tax rates so they don't kill the golden egg.

    I am aware the cost of living is expensive in Switzerland but this is balanced by higher average salaries and relatively low personal taxation which is the result of the state being able to reap so much money from companies that are not actually performing much of their actual work within Swiss borders.


     
  3. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,004

    Wow. What a lot of time spent trying to pick out one person for a clumsy character assassination.

    "Virtue-signaller" is the meme the populists have given their thralls to try and have them blindly dismiss anyone who criticises them.

    It's bull**** of course. Criticism of these chumps is actually the opposite. Highlighting, or "signalling" of vice, or character flaw.

    Can you show you understand the term and aren't just parroting a fallacious meme supplied by the usual demagogic suspects?
     
  4. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    You may not like the term but it's quite succinct way to express a common theme where people like to take the supposed moral high ground on issues when their own conduct suggests their statements are more a matter of public posture then actual deep seated personal commitment to principle.

    There is degree of irony to you whinning about demagogues when the person you are trying to defend engages in populist prejudices like calling a brexiter 'utter scum' for doing things like leaving the UK for tax reasons when they are quite happy to chirp in with suggestion for the best venues for paying less tax abroad for their remainer chums.... who as it turns out could not even be bothered to move to a country in the EU they whined about the UK voting to leave.
     
  5. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 2,686

    Can you explain how brexit benefits the UK overall compared to the current EU deal, using the car industry as an example ?
     
  6. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,038

    Something something… EU Commission are the only ones who can propose legislation… something something…
     
  7. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,728

    I've been accused of "virtue signalling" before, but only on this forum

    As if I would care about my "public posture" on a forum where people know me by a username, some posts and nothing else.
     
  8. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,638

    Shooting for the moon. So far all we have heard is 'make our laws'(without being able to name one) while not being able to explain the UK is subject to eg UN laws.
     
  9. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    I think I have been fairly consistent that I would expect leaving the EU to have mostly negative economic consequences in the short term if only just due to a period or disruption.

    If you can't think think of any economic pitfalls of being wedded economically to the EU in the longer term when I would suggest the cracks are already starting to show in the whole endeavour (in places like Italy) then I doubt any argument I would make would assist you otherwise.

    Remainers often like to drum up the fear of the calamities that may follow leaving the EU whilst strangely ignoring that such calamities would be both more likely and more severe if the EU was to collapse in on itself whilst we are still shackled to it so intimately.

    Outside of the strictly economic arguments there are others like having the option of ability to stop the reduction in social cohesion that having no effective control on mass immigration causes and having a more clearly identified path from the public to thoose in control of the laws.
     
  10. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,638

    After 10 years of austerity with education crumbling, the NHS just functioning for the moment, police not investigating crimes because they haven't the manpower etc, etc your remedy is more economic pain for probably another decade at least. If the EU were to fall there would be another massive economic recession whether we are part of it or not.
    For the 94,000,000,000 time we have control over immigration but we are doing nothing about it.
     
  11. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 2,686

    My view is simply choose the best deal, remain or leave flag waving is irrelevant to me. It is important not to assume any deal is the best.

    I asked what the benefits overall of brexit are compared to the current EU deal referring to for example the car industry. You answered other questions but not that one. The UK government chose to allow the recent levels of migration, it could have halved it if it chose to. If you deduct welfare payments from tax receipts for EU migrants the UK gains over £13,500,000,000. If we leave the EU we still have the same UK government which allowed these migration levels.

    You mention laws, could you mention a specific EU law that caused great economic damage to the UK ?

    If I asked a supporter of remaining in the EU what the benefits of the current EU deal are they would give a list of reasons and go into detail on them if asked. In comparison leave supporters to date can’t do the same for the benefits of brexit. From my view of simply looking for the best deal this suggests there are no benefits of brexit only an emotional belief in it.
     
  12. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    No we dont not from Europe we had the option of limited time restrictuons on immigration from some new joiners but the last Labour administration decided not to exercise that option saying that the expected influx would be in the region of 5 - 13 thousand when the actual figure was twenty times that which makes Boris bus figure look positively accurate in comparison.

    Freedom of movement is an essential (and unecessary) part of the EU.

    Anyone who knows anything about immigration knows that you have to have the controls at the borders and that trying to remove people once they are already in the country is not a viable wider solution for immigration control and is only suitable for removing the more severe cases.
     
  13. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    This is not a meaningful measure of overall benefit as welfare payments are far from the only costs additional citizens cause a state.

    But yet its strangely a very popular figure for people to disengeniously trot out.

    Yes I know that the predominately younger immigrants from the EU of working age currently pay more taxes then they currently receive in direct welfare payments.

    But like everyone else there are other either less direct and/ or long term implications for the state.
     
  14. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,430

    How long exactly is 'short' term? It's all fine and dandy saying you would expect leaving the EU to have mostly negative economic consequences in the short term but without defining what you consider 'short' to be it's meaningless.
     
  15. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,638

    WE can kick out anybody from the EU after three months if they have no job. They also have to have medical insurance so they are not a burden to the host country. These are EU laws which the UK has never bothered about.
    The lack of border controls to deal with this is whose fault. Germany and France seem to be able to get rid of immigrants better than we do.
     
  16. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    Around the length of one parliament, so around 5 years.

    I expect you might have to look a bit further down the line (around 10 years) to have a more complete picture.
     
  17. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,430

    So you think JRM was wrong when he said 50 years?
     
  18. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    Can in theory but rarely do as such enforcement is time consuming and expensive.

    There is no system in place for recording how long eu migrants have been in the country.

    You need control of your borders when dealing with large numbers of potential immigrants.

     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  19. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,113

    You are believing this because the right wing press are telling you to. The media found it easy to pivot to Blair because he was (and is) centre-right and it was going to be business as usual. They would support another Blairite leader the same way at this point. But a moderate leader isn't going to fix the problems we have - it would just be more years of status quo where we don't address the issues that need addressing. Right now we need a Corbyn, but the media will not support that kind of politician no matter what, because they hate and fear the idea of a left wing government proving successful and especially one that will force them to report honestly.
     
  20. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,638

    Like every other department under this Govt the number in border control have been cut. Our fault.

    Posting the one case trying to make it seem like it is the norm is easy. After all the bill the UK paid for Hamza was £millions and even then he went on his own accord. Others in the same article cost 1000 Euros. On a wider point law enforcement from whatever area is costly.