1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!

    Hi,

    1.) It has too. Immigration was a huge issue for people voting to leave. It has to be addressed. I have not said it will be our ultimate saviour. I know we will have other issues from other areas. This needs to be managed also but this isnt the time to negotiate or bring it up. Immigration has to be uniform across the board. Not a replacement scheme.

    2.) No they come here for the mainly low paid jobs. As i have posted. It is because those minimum wage jobs will not pay more. So they are "targeted" towards breadline EU nationals. They are fully aware UK workers wont be able to survive on those wages or those conditions the nationals will live in. It becomes an unfair comparison. Unless you expect people to invite their friends to come live with them and sleep on mattresses of the floor so we can afford to take those jobs.

    3.) Yes they do. But high levels on immigration seriously degrade the quality of the area. As soon as this happens most of these people will move out, away from it. But we are running out of areas to move to. Look at London. Such a great city. But such a horrid place to live.

    4.) They are interlinked. Yes i agree on that. However mass immigration does affect areas that do not have the infrastructure to accommodate that influx. The councils in this area now force the schools to accept a % of ethnic minority pupils regardless of area or location. This in relation, causes pupils in the catchment areas to be rejected from schools even if the are significantly closer or have siblings at the school. I find this wrong.

    The councils should make sure they have the fundamentals in place to take those new pupils. But they are not even considering it. And the problem lands on the doorstep of the families involved.

    So I have had my rethink and it is clear you have a reason to dismiss my actual claims.
     
  2. marin

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 651

    Location: Reykjavík - Iceland

    My Sister-in-law's brother is an immigration lawyer who is totally against Brexit.

    At the moment there are several tools that can be used to remove immigrants from this country, after Brexit these will all be gone and there will be no way to have them removed, also immigration will increase from non-EU countries as has been said by others.

    But whatever it will make him extremely rich from the viewpoints of people like you and he can afford it when the price of all goods increase 10%, 20% or more - I hope you can afford it.
     
  3. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,629

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Well thanks for coming back. I know the area well, I have lived all my life in east of england, working in the various counties. I currently work in suffolk but right on the edge of essex.

    I am not surprised you feel the way you do on this case, I am afraid to say it was pretty obvious to me there was a high chance, I picked suffolk norfolk, but I was considering essex as well, its the same issues.

    The main one being felt in all countries, wealth disparity, entitlement based on race/birth place/colour etc, neglect by our government. Where it becomes most of an issue is where natives are squeezed out by capitalism taking effect.

    The fundamentals are people don't like to accept the world is changing. Why do most countries see a movement of people from outside to inside cities? Its simply that many years ago we needed a high workforce outside the main areas to to be able to produce the needed food. This is pretty much no longer relevant, a tiny proportion are needed to feed the nation (ignore the net food imports for now).

    If you were setting up a business where would you do it? You would do it where it made sense.
    The government try to stimulate some of this, its why most of the government employment is away from London. Tax offices etc. The problem is the government are not willing to go far enough, enterprise zones etc go part way.
    Having worked in financial services previously its why they tend to congregate, skills are available.

    I get why people feel left behind, why they want change, but it requires a completely different model. Many of the people voting for Brexit wont support that radical change to the model, I can tell you that now.
    The boomer generation want change, they want to go back to the 60s or so. They still expect a pension, to own their own house, to pay little tax, to have policing, NHS free to use etc.
    Suddenly say to them that we require a reboot, some wealth taxes, maybe contributory NHS based on wealth etc and see them react, and thats the problem, a radical rebalancing of our economy away from the cities to in particular the coasts will require a completely different model, and a very significant portion of the electorate are not going to support that.
     
  4. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!

    Lets not go round and round in circles. I do not have the time or strength today. :)

    As you have said to me, where is the evidence they dont want to humiliate us. ? Yes absolutely agree we have made things ever more so embarrassing ourselves.

    Yes they are getting fed up. Because they thought that it would be revoked. They really did. Then they believed that May's deal would also be approved. It wasn't. So now they are frustrated. Because we are challenging them. Putting pressure back on there position. The spite of the EU is evident.
     
  5. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 3,202

    The first thing you need to get clear is that leaving the EU will not reduce immigration. It has not and will not. It just means the same numbers of immigrants will come but from other countries. You need to accept and understand that, or this conversation is pointless.

    The referendum was not a yes/no with a question of do you want to reduce immigration.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  6. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,714

    Basically the entirety of McstylisT arguments from hear to the end of time can be summarised as "I reject your reality and substitute my own". :p
     
  7. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,629

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Re 2, no, completely false. Living closer to Cambridge than any other city i can tell you there are loads and I mean loads of well paid jobs being done by foreign nationals.
    In fact where I work, until recently we had all English people in our factory, recently we struggled to recruit and we have about 10 now, mainly EU but also a russian. Until this point ALL the foreign nationals we had were in more senior or technical roles, finance, purchasing, technical.

    3) No. Its a common scapegoat, areas are primarily influenced by wealth. People I work with from outside the UK tut at the mess the UK nationals make in the canteen at lunchtime as just a quick simple example.
     
  8. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,812

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Immigration has not had any significant downward effect on the wages of British workers. This is a simple fact; there has been no "massive effect" on wages. This failure to deal with actual reality is what makes the Brexit "debate" so fundamentally frustrating: it's a debate in which one side is furious about things that are simply happening. Areas with higher immigration are actually happier with immigration than areas with lower immigration (and, no, that's not explicable by population change); which is a basic flaw in the argument of anyone arguing that immigration must be stopped. The people most affected are happier about it than those least affected.

    The reason that the four freedoms - freedom of movement of goods, capital, services, and labour - are considered to go together as a package is because otherwise you can have a situation where a company can move capital and investment to another country in the EU but the workers cannot go with it. Freedom of movement protects the interests of workers against the interests of businesses, not the other way round.
     
  9. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!


    No problem. There is many many instances.

    https://news.sky.com/story/leaked-eu-document-shows-brexit-punishment-plan-11239487

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47143135

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...-EU-Michel-Barnier-BBC-Brexitcast-Katya-Adler

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...ews-eu-uk-brexit-deal-ireland-border-backstop

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...ay-iain-duncan-smith-bloomberg-no-deal-remain

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...o-october-brexit-after-franco-german-carve-up

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-Warsaw-Law-and-Justice-Polexit-Brexit-latest

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rance-tusk-article-50-extension-a8833731.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...nson-jeremy-hunt-the-sun-stalin-a8767871.html
     
  10. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,199

    I have news for you: he doesn't answer simple questions either. People are starting to realise that his past public appearances where he played the charming funny buffoon were all done with a script. When you put the real Boris in front of an interview, the true idiot is exposed.
     
  11. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,629

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

  12. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!


    Sorry I dont agree at all. It goes hand in hand to keep wages low. If then the company had no other options to fill the positions then they have to improve there financial reward for the work. But the hole is they "can" find other cheap labour without ever having to consider the finances.
     
  13. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!

    I recommend you click on them all.

    Lets be honest, I have provided many facts from various sources and you are choosing to disagree. Which is your right and prerogative. But lets not ignore the fact that those links show we have been threatened and this is not a manor of an ally.
     
  14. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,264

    I currently believe that remaining in the EU is the right thing to do. However, this is not based on blind faith and I do not consider the EU to be perfect. If it could be proven that the UK is currently suffering as a direct result of our EU membership (rather than because of the actions/inaction of the UK government) and that the UK will be demonstrably better off by leaving I would certainly be open to revising my position.

    You appear to think that Brexit is a good thing and that it must happen at any cost. What would it take to convince you that you may be mistaken in this?
     
  15. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 12,141

    Location: Hertfordshire

    You have provided lots of newspaper "opinions" and "interpretations" rather than actual fact.
     
  16. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,714

    That's talking about a draft document, one that without proof it's probably safe to say was rejected.
    Not a plan, an opinion.
    Not a plan, the imaginations of the BBC EU corespondent on why the EU wouldn't allow cherry picking.
    Not a plan, a complaint that the UK put obstacles in the way to prevent EU citizens voting in the EU election.
    Not a plan, the opinion of a Eurosceptic politician
    Not a plan, a warning not to waste time.
    Not a plan, not even Brexit related as it's about Poland.
    Not a plan, a warning that voting against Mrs May's d3eal makes leaving without a deal more likely.
    Not a plan, very similar to your second link, in fact it talks about how the EU has been incredibly tolerant of the sling and arrows thrown at them from UK Eurosceptics.

    Although i have to say it's hilarious that you'd post 4 links to articles from the Excess despite the person you were replying to specifically calling them out over their hyperbolic rhetoric.
     
  17. McstylisT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 8, 2008

    Posts: 1,743

    Location: ENGLAND !!

    Okay ......... sigh.
     
  18. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 12,141

    Location: Hertfordshire

    If you could look at things without that massive EU chip on your shoulder you might come to more logical conclusions. Remainers are not in love with the EU, its just far far better to be in than out.
     
  19. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,714

    I did and I've got news for you, newspapers very rarely publish facts, if you believe they do then i suspect that's why people keep telling you that you're not basing your arguments on facts.
     
  20. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 19,928

    Location: London

    Decades of the Telegraph and DM telling us how the big bad EU are going to take away our British shaped bananas has had quite the effect on people.