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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. jonneymendoza

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 7, 2008

    Posts: 14,624

    Time to bump up that Facebook post and reignite the discussion?
     
  2. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,091

    I really haven’t got the energy — OcUK is more than enough of a time sink. :p :D
     
  3. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,590

    Location: Midlands

    QFT.

    I'm not sure how, what, where, when or why this happens, but in discussions at work, we go about a lifecycle. NHS - dispelled. Wealth/GDP saving - dispelled. Immigrants stopped - dispelled etc. Then when we have addressed nearly every rational concern, it turns to anger and victim mentality. Then after that has died down, it turns to NHS again...
     
  4. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,134

    Hey, at least here, we have @Caracus2k with his unique pro-Brexit arguments along the lines of, "Those who had legs blown off by the Boston marathon bomber cannot deny the appreciable benefit he bestowed on them by way of shoe cost savings."
     
  5. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,458

    NHS hasn'tbeen dispelled. The spending suggestion the bus has already been pledged. You're just pretending it hasn't happened.

    Wealth / GDP hasn't been dispelled. UK has growth whilst Germany is struggling. Impressive when you think about it. We should be sliding right down the poo shoot with them.

    No one said immigration should be stopped, no one, the argument is that it should be better controlled. There's only so many non English speaking toilet cleaners that are useful and low skilled wages are now climbing since there's been a slowdown in low skilled immigration. Funny that.

    A lot Remainers seem to ignoring things that exist and actually happening today and just regurgitating the same old propaganda.

    Some people aren't even worried about any of the above and simply don't want their vote for one MP to be diluted through a further layer of thousands of MEPs. When they see EU members advocating a federal Europe they want to push back against that which is fair enough don't you think.

    People have a right to determine their leaders, not vote for someone who in turn will be told who leads them.
     
  6. Bear

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 24, 2002

    Posts: 12,286

    Location: Bucks and Edinburgh

    What like what is exactly happening right now with the Tory leadership contest?
     
  7. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,737

    Location: Essex

    You're simply stating things that are untrue.

    Our economy has contracted three months in a row.

    - March: -0.1%
    - April: -0.4%
    - June: -0.1%

    The final figures aren't out yet but the NIESR expects us to post a contraction of -0.2% for Q2.

    Either way, it's going to be a whole quarter's worth of contraction, and two successive quarters of contraction constitute an official recession.

    In comparison, Germany's issues at the end of last year were short term, primarily down to external factors (Trump tariffs/emissions), were well understood and quite localised.

    They have already seen their economy rebound somewhat as these temporary factors eased, and for Q1 2019 Germany posted GDP growth of 0.4% and is looking to hold around the 0.2+% mark for Q2, when the final figures come in.

    That's quite a difference to our contraction wouldn't you say?

    Honestly, I can't even bring myself to discuss the rest of your post because I'm losing my patience with people who are prepared to dishonestly peddle outright misinformation and parade it around as truth merely because it's suits their reality detached fantasy.

    In fact, that's why I barely post here any longer. I'm sick of repeatedly providing demonstrable fact and reasoned arguments, only to have them met with a stream of logical fallacies and incoherent ramblings based on hilariously obvious propagandist anti-EU memes.

    This whole discussion is becoming like the early scenes in Chernobyl, with a complete denial of reality.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  8. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,253

    Location: Here and There...

    The extra NHS funding is not related to brexit though is it? It would be happening either way and is a simple matter of necessity to keep the service functioning!



    GDP growth isn’t about comparing us to Germany it’s about what we could have had and it’s clear that we have been weakened by brexit

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019...-growth-lower-productivity-depreciated-pound/
     
  9. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 31,146

    Location: Co Durham

    Pledged from taxation not from any saving from leaving the EU. So wer could have chosen to spend that £350m on the NHS and stay in the EU as well.
     
  10. Rilot

    Don

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 19,464

    Location: Wargrave, UK

    Source please.
     
  11. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,253

    Location: Here and There...

    All wages are rising and interestingly low skilled wages have been rising faster than middle earners for years due to minimum wage increases. Nothing like pedalling a few brexit myths though!
     
  12. Rilot

    Don

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 19,464

    Location: Wargrave, UK

    So it's another example of correlation implies causation is it.....? Minimum wage rises due to government policy = wages rising due to Brexit.
     
  13. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,664

    You can't pretend something hasn't happened when the something never existed in the first place, it would be like pretending the abominable snowman didn't water-ski down the Thames, it's a double negative.

    The Brexit dividend never existed so it couldn't be spent on the NHS and even the money that's been 'pledged' only covers around half of that spending 'suggestion' on the bus, an extra £20 billion in funding for the NHS in England by 2023/24 only amounts to £170 to £190 million a week, somewhat shy of the £350 million a week 'suggestion'.
     
  14. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,458

    We're arguing semantics. Neither Leave or Remain were in government so anything they said about funding or policy was pointless.
     
  15. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 31,146

    Location: Co Durham

    Hes right you know. Its gone up from £1300 per month average to £1320. An increase of 1.5%. Amazing growth but less than the increase in minimum wage.
     
  16. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,737

    Location: Essex

    The £350 million NHS debacle can be summed up with the following analogy:

    1. I pledge to give you £10.
    2. I take your wallet containing £30.
    3. Of the £30 I took from you, I give you the £10 I pledged to you.

    That's it... Simple.

    If you're still arguing that the NHS is getting some kind of boost from Brexit, then you're being purposefully dishonest.

    You're literally saying "Hey, but look at the £10 I gave you" while expecting us to ignore that we've lost £20 overall.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  17. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,664

    Firstly you can't draw direct comparisons with other economies, comparisons of that nature are only useful for spotting global trends.

    Secondly the rate of GDP growth has gone from the highest growth rate in the G7 before the vote, to the lowest now, referring back to my first point we know that reduction in the growth rate has not been caused by a global downturn so while it's correct to say the "UK has growth whilst Germany is struggling" you're cherry picking and trying to draw a direct comparison when you should be looking at the aggregate statistics.
    No we're not, we're arguing the point you raised that "NHS hasn'tbeen dispelled. The spending suggestion the bus has already been pledged. You're just pretending it hasn't happened."

    You said the spending suggestion the bus has already been pledged and people were pretending it hadn't, that's not semantics, it's untrue.
     
  18. bayo000

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 28, 2008

    Posts: 3,883

    Location: Manchester

    While that's true, that message on the bus has most likely won the referendum for Leave.
     
  19. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,134

    It wasn't semantics when you were shown to be lying about UK and German growth figures amid the thorough debunking of every part of your post about how pro-Brexit arguments hadn't been debunked.

    :rolleyes:

    The dishonesty needed to stick to this position now is staggering.

    Absolutely this...

     
  20. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 12,418

    It didnt, but its still a sticking point...