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Canada's Trudeau back under a cloud heading into tight election

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Evangelion, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 6,887

    Location: La France

    I’m not calling you or anyone else racist. I’m sure a bunch of us have done something for a laugh back in the day that was iffy then, but utterly unacceptable now.

    Thank fate that no one had camera phones when I was a teenager.
     
  2. Fubsy

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 12, 2003

    Posts: 8,718

    Location: Thatcham

    My father is a bigot, and would laugh along with the racism on the TV, but I learnt from his behaviour in regards to when things were said against his heritage (scouser) that mockery and offensive material on TV can hurt people and he admitted as much to me, inadvertently teaching me a big lesson. Still didn't stop him holding horrifically bigoted views his whole life, and I've never understood why, as when I actually challenged him and talked to him he was sensitive, reasoned and didn't truly hold the things he said as fervently in his head when thinking about it. I've come across a number of people like this through my life, people that appear racist, but when you talk to them, and deconstruct their bigotry it all falls away like a mask; come back to them days/weeks/months later and they are back at the full blown bigotry as if it's an impulse.

    I actually don't speak to my father any more because I got sick of this along with other family matters.
     
  3. Jono8

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 20, 2007

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    Location: Surrey

    It isn't as simple as that though is it. Trump has said and done racist stuff all of his life (and still does).

    Therefore , if pictures of Trump wearing black face surfaced, it would be much more likely that there were racist connotations to what he was doing.

    With Trudeau, whilst i admit that it was pretty stupid/ignorant/insensitive, i am not sure it was inherently racist (and by that i mean he was doing it with the intention of mocking or belittling black people).

    You know what else is different? He has acknowledged it, said he regrets it and apologised.

    “I apologise profoundly,” said the Canadian prime minister on Wednesday night after the photograph was published. “I regret it deeply. I’m deeply sorry I did that, I should have known better.”

    When has Trump ever admitted to or apologised for any of the racist crap he has said and done?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  4. Fubsy

    Sgarrista

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    The thing with Justin Trudeau though... he knew that he'd blacked up in the past (like you know you dressed up as an arab with a bomb vest) but never came forward and owned it even though his politics were very against what he's been caught out doing, and maybe even on more occasions. He's been successful in life and privileged to govern a major country based on his image being what it was BEFORE this image came to the surface, and it's much more damaging that way. He's lost a big chunk of credibility because he's hidden it all along the time he's been preaching against (rightly) this sort of BS. At any point he could have got ahead of it and addressed it head on with the right message, but politician is going to politician.
     
  5. Greebo

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    God you will never know how relived we didn't have camera phones and FB back then!!!!

    Point about calling me racist is that I don;t mean anybody has on here however if you believe Trudeau was racist and post as such on this thread then equally you must believe I am for the same reasons. You have stated black/brown face was always wrong and idiots thought they could get away with it. That clearly then includes me.

    I have never considered myself as an idiot and i never considered black/brown face as wrong when I grew up. I do now but its a different world now to back then. Racism and bigotry was everywhere and main went unchallenged.

    Hell the BBC was written to by a black organisation saying the Black and White minstrel show was racist and show be taken off the TV and BBC ignored it and kept it on the air for another 12 years after people first complained about it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  6. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

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    Location: London

    It shouldn't be a career ending controversy but the more we see of him, the less progressive he seems and is growing in the number of scandals surrounding him. Green champion - approves a big old oil pipeline. The SNC-Lavalin affair alone should be career ending. And he doesn't seem to have an issue selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. A real shame.
     
  7. Fubsy

    Sgarrista

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    But that's my point, we all know what Trump is. A racist, and it would be more surprising if there weren't blackface pics of him. He won his campaign while being openly racist.

    I'm not saying Trudeau using the blackface is racist, but using the squeaky clean image to campaign and garner support from minority and lefter leaning electorate, and to use that to elevate to PM of Canada is maybe a little bit racist in terms of using their support while having this hidden in his closet all along. Would he have got this far had it been known about 10 years ago?!

    Difference is you aren't campaigning to lead a country and ask for support from the people you may have offended while hiding the fact you did it.

    I don't think historic blackface is inherently a racist act, but hiding from doing it to get support from people that would have been offended by it extremely dishonest, betraying and lacking in integrity. Using their support to gain power and privilege while having that in your history is an abuse of their race. Is that racism? I'm not sure anymore due to the fluidity of the definition.
     
  8. Greebo

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    True and I agree with you that he should have come clean right from the off. Difficult to do though esp if you are embarrassed about what you did.
     
  9. Jono8

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    I will agree with you on that point.

    It would have been better if he brought it up himself, admitted and apologised for it.
     
  10. Greebo

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    Yep he could have made a positive thing of it like "lots of people did this when they were young but you don't have to stay like that all your life, people can change, things like this arent acceptable now and we all know it was wrong etc"
     
  11. Fubsy

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    That's exactly what he could and should have done Greebo. Doing anything else is downright dishonest and makes a mockery of all the progress he's made for the nation in sensitive areas such as this. By being caught out hiding it, what it actually does is give ammo to the bigots to say "Ahh, see he did it as well, they are all closet racists see!!!!"

    It's so frustrating to see how stupid politicians continue to be when they profess to be the best and lead our countries; they don't have to be perfect, but they have to be true to who they are and be upfront and honest about indiscretions in the past. Without knowing the guy on a personal level we'll never know if he actually wanted to come clean with it or not, I feel he's been advised to keep it quiet which is stupid in itself as things like this can always be used as blackmail. Idiocy all round from another world leader and their teams.
     
  12. krooton

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    I can't remember every little thing I did in my youth, and I also don't think that any victimless things I did do, that are no acceptable by today's standards, should really have any defining factor on who I am now. I grew up in South Africa, I probably made/repeated some racist jokes when I was a kid, I don't remember. Am I supposed to beg for forgiveness for the things I may have said?

    We constantly strive to get rid of racism, homophobia, bigotry in general, but then still hold everyone and sundry to account for things that happened decades ago. If someone was a racist 5 years ago (but didn't actively hurt anyone or anything), but has now enlightened views, does that not matter? Is that not where we are trying to get?
     
  13. Fubsy

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    You can't get rid of it by pretending it doesn't/didn't exist.

    I actually think we are all racist in some way through unconscious bias, and the only way to not act in a racist way is admit it when you are and adjust accordingly, but then you get into the realms of is THAT racism?! This also goes for non-white people and their thoughts and actions towards to white people, but then that's a whole new thread.
     
  14. VincentHanna

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    It wasn't intended to be snide. Our views are often diametrically opposed, so when we do agree it's worth a mention.
     
  15. Fubsy

    Sgarrista

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    You don't need to remember, but like you said you know you probably did it and are aware it's wrong. What defines you now however is that you know it was wrong and no longer do it, but aren't denying or hiding from your past. All you're showing is that people can learn and change with education and life experience; but if you were to stand on a podium, claim and present yourself as squeaky clean while running for office and ask for minority votes while aware of your past without addressing it.... it doesn't look very good.

    EVERYONE will have done something in their past that doesn't hold up to today's standards. It's useful though to understand where oneself might not be that person who made the racist jokes way back then, how did we learn to not be that person? That's the key I feel to ending at the very least 'casual' racism.

    EDIT: I barely come into SC. I have no idea how/why I've been sucked into this thread. I'll be back in the Brexit thread next and the whole day will be lost.
     
  16. dowie

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    Exactly, if it were say a bunch of floppy haired, son's of Republican politicians at say the Alabama Private Boys School and they're all jeering at the guy dressed in blackface then it would be rather different.

    This is a guy who simply did it as part of his costume at a night where the theme was "Arabian nights", he was not doing it to mock POC else he'd not be posing for a picture with POC:

    [​IMG]

    I don't think at the time it was necessarily stupid or insensitive even, it simply wasn't a thing back then... the reason it is an issue these days, in a context like that, is because of the possible ambiguity to it and the current absolutist position that anything related to wearing brown/black makeup = not allowed. That wasn't the case back then and it was not much different (in that context) to say putting a wig and makeup on to better dress as a female character etc...

    Plenty of the sketches in the comedy series Little Britain wouldn't be made today because of the way something like blackface is perceived and is so taboo now. It isn't like they were dressed up like minstrels either, David Walliams was simply playing a character not mocking a group of people but today it wouldn't be wise to do it due to the way it would be perceived.

    It is really silly though for people to drag things like this up and be outraged when the outrage isn't over something inherently bad but just relies on judging the thing by a standard that wasn't present then. This is not the same as excusing say outright racism, the idea that making black people the butt of jokes or using offensive words in reference to groups of people was OK back in the day isn't an excuse as the element of some harmful intent is still there. this is just faux outrage over something that wasn't an issue then, didn't harm anyone and was pretty innocent.

    Fair enough :)
     
  17. Freddie1980

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    Joined: Sep 25, 2009

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    Location: Billericay, UK

    Harry and Paul is another series that bite the dust to political correctness. We're fast becoming a humourless society because we too scared at someone taking offensive at something.

    For as much as cringe worthy as Mr Trudeau's wokeness is he shouldn't be buried for it as it's just a mirror of time he lived in. Besides there are plenty of other things he's done that will see him out of office.
     
  18. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

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    Putting Trump in the mix seems like a lot like Whataboutisum to me. The theme is Arabian nights but you don't have to black up for that. It's well known there are many light-skinned Arabs that look practically white. It's all about eh hypocrisy for me. Calling out and virtue signalling at every opportunity and using Trump as a whipping boy when he's done some questionable things himself.

    And all I've seen is some impressive mental gymnastics and bending over backwards to excuse him simply because it's one of their own.
     
  19. nkata

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

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    Location: Cheshire / Staffordshire

    I admit to blacking up as a five year old in a village fete fancy dress to portray a red indian, sorry native american, that was in 1957 and I have the picture somewhere. Also blacking up as a pirate some years later at a childrens party in, believe this or not, Accra Ghana. The sales of grease paint will fall through the floor. :D
     
  20. Greebo

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    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

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    Not really but how can i criticise what he did when I have done it myself? I can't. Although myself and others can criticise how is handling it.