Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain

BunnyKillBot · 19 Jan 2011 at 16:58

Drum2 said:
Has no one dropped this quote into the fire yet?

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

It is more atheistically correct to state that good and evil are man made constructs applied at a whim to what suits/ills us. The quote is also poor because it implies the only thing that causes the 'good' to do 'bad' is religion. Are you suggesting there are no 'good' gone 'bad' atheists?

Drum2 · 19 Jan 2011 at 17:34

vonhelmet said:
It's cute, but it doesn't make sense. Most people would say they were good people up until they stab someone, at which point society readjusts and refers to them as bad.

I think the point is, for a person who is otherwise intrinsically good to commit an act of evil, requires that they have a belief so grand and homiletic that it can overpower and warp that inherent goodness.
I wouldn't say religion is the only thing that fits the bill, but it's surely the most obvious and prevalent.

BunnyKillBot said:
It is more atheistically correct to state that good and evil are man made constructs applied at a whim to what suits/ills us. The quote is also poor because it implies the only thing that causes the 'good' to do 'bad' is religion. Are you suggesting there are no 'good' gone 'bad' atheists?

I'd say there's a difference between good turning bad, and good doing bad.
I'm sure there are plenty of bad atheists doing evil things!

Stretch · 19 Jan 2011 at 17:41

Orcish-Horde said:
Muslims wear pajamas?

No they eat piranhas.

Vonhelmet · 19 Jan 2011 at 17:43

Stretch said:
No they eat piranhas.

Freddie Muslim ate my hamster.

Castiel · 19 Jan 2011 at 17:44

mothermachine said:
"everyone" being a couple of people out of many in this thread. not strange at all. it'd be more strange if nobody misunderstood each-other.

Those couple who actually know the subject matter.

Castiel · 19 Jan 2011 at 17:45

vonhelmet said:
Freddie Muslim ate my hamster.

Harry Hamster ate my Muslim....

(or was that muslin)

boxman2000 · 20 Jan 2011 at 08:35

mothermachine said:
Surely preaching is the attempt by someone to spread what they see as the "truth" to people whom they see as ignorant of that "truth"? Therefore it is teaching, no? They are trying to pass on "knowledge" as they see it. Therefore women are not allowed to preach, no?

Either way it says women should keep silent. So how can they preach and be silent?

No, teaching and preaching are totally different things:

Description / Explanation
Images / Concepts
Invitational / Instructional

Basic explanation but those are the sorts of differences.

boxman2000 · 20 Jan 2011 at 08:41

RDM said:
But they aren't actually the teachings of Jesus. They are the instructions from (possibly) Paul. The world would probably be a much better place if they had never been included in the New Testament frankly.

The scriptures are the inspired Word of God and none of what Paul states goes against the teachings of Christ, infact they reinforce the points made (if that's possible!)

I guess you could say Jesus' role was to 'seek and save the lost' while a good part of Paul's role was practical ministry and establishing mission churches/leaders.

I'd love to know more on the subject - been studying theology for the last 2 years and it is quite overwhelming how much there is to learn!

boxman2000 · 20 Jan 2011 at 08:45

Drum2 said:
I think the point is, for a person who is otherwise intrinsically good to commit an act of evil, requires that they have a belief so grand and homiletic that it can overpower and warp that inherent goodness.
I wouldn't say religion is the only thing that fits the bill, but it's surely the most obvious and prevalent.

Man wasn't made for religion which is why it's so easy to rebel against it.

Castiel · 20 Jan 2011 at 10:06

boxman2000 said:
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God and none of what Paul states goes against the teachings of Christ, infact they reinforce the points made (if that's possible!)

I guess you could say Jesus' role was to 'seek and save the lost' while a good part of Paul's role was practical ministry and establishing mission churches/leaders.

I'd love to know more on the subject - been studying theology for the last 2 years and it is quite overwhelming how much there is to learn!

The scriptures are the words of men inspired by God. A subtle but important distinction.

Johno please? · 20 Jan 2011 at 10:30

Drum2 said:
I think the point is, for a person who is otherwise intrinsically good to commit an act of evil, requires that they have a belief so grand and homiletic that it can overpower and warp that inherent goodness.
I wouldn't say religion is the only thing that fits the bill, but it's surely the most obvious and prevalent.!

Exactly, what do Athiests shout before they blow themselves up or fly planes into buildings?

RDM · 20 Jan 2011 at 11:08

Drum2 said:
I think the point is, for a person who is otherwise intrinsically good to commit an act of evil, requires that they have a belief so grand and homiletic that it can overpower and warp that inherent goodness.
I wouldn't say religion is the only thing that fits the bill, but it's surely the most obvious and prevalent.

It isn't the most successful though. Political ideologies seem to be much more efficient in getting otherwise good people to do bad things. Nationalism and communism spring to mind as the main examples of the 20th Century.

boxman2000 said:
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God and none of what Paul states goes against the teachings of Christ, infact they reinforce the points made (if that's possible!)

I guess you could say Jesus' role was to 'seek and save the lost' while a good part of Paul's role was practical ministry and establishing mission churches/leaders.

If the letters are in fact written by Paul. They are certainly attributed to him, but there is a reasonable amount of debate and considered evidence to suggest that they are actually later documents. The further you are removed from the actual teachings of Christ I would say the dodgier ground you are on as far as "being a good Christian" goes.

boxman2000 said:
I'd love to know more on the subject - been studying theology for the last 2 years and it is quite overwhelming how much there is to learn!

I am suprised you haven't come across the fact that 1 Timothy may not in fact have been written by Paul then. Where are you studying?

BunnyKillBot · 20 Jan 2011 at 12:03

Drum2 said:
I think the point is, for a person who is otherwise intrinsically good to commit an act of evil, requires that they have a belief so grand and homiletic that it can overpower and warp that inherent goodness.
I wouldn't say religion is the only thing that fits the bill, but it's surely the most obvious and prevalent.

Firstly, from a christian perspective, there is no 'inherent goodness'. All have sinned, all have fallen short of the Glory of god. So 'overpower and warp that inherent goodness' is a moot point.

Secondly, not a single one of the major religions teach 'evil', not one. So i suggest to you, that what cases man to commit evil is not religion, not scripture, not God, but something else.

As a previous poster has said, political ideologies are far more dangerous as they take nation upon nation to bloody war. In history and into the present day some (not all) political ideologies hijack religious doctrine and contrive it to their own ends, to justify abuses of power. A man may use a gun to defend himself, or to murder in cold blood. Is the gun at fault?

RDM · 20 Jan 2011 at 14:47

BunnyKillBot said:
Secondly, not a single one of the major religions teach 'evil', not one. So i suggest to you, that what cases man to commit evil is not religion, not scripture, not God, but something else.

Just a point here, but surely that would depend on how you define evil? Treating women as second class citizens and defining homosexuality as wrong could quite easily be classed as "wrong" for example.

Biohazard · 20 Jan 2011 at 14:58

Don't you mean "evil"?

bushmins · 20 Jan 2011 at 15:02

Chickens are becoming psychopaths? Man, i need to get some glasses.

boxman2000 · 21 Jan 2011 at 08:18

Castiel said:
The scriptures are the words of men inspired by God. A subtle but important distinction.

Sorry, should have said 'is the' inspired Word.

You are quite right though.

boxman2000 · 21 Jan 2011 at 08:29

RDM said:
I am suprised you haven't come across the fact that 1 Timothy may not in fact have been written by Paul then. Where are you studying?

Yes I have come across that but am more with Constable on this one (Pauline authorship camp).

I don't believe for one minute that changes anything - as I said, these books do not contradict each other and if anything support each other all the more. Authorship is a fascinating subject though, not that this is covered in great depth yet.

That is why I believe the apocrypha does not form part of the Protestant bible – doctrinal contradictions (e.g. salvation by works, 2 Maccabees 12: 43-45 vs Ephesians 2: 8-9 and so on)

Studying with Mattersey Hall – Assemblies Of God