CO2 - The New War on Terrorism!

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gobbo said:
BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6334327.stm

Basically car manufacturers are now being targeted to make their cars produce less CO2. Nothing about factories needing better filtration on their stacks, or increasing airport tax the same way they increase petrol duty.

Well, considering that the UK has no real car industry left, it seems sensible for the government to attempt to restrict emissions by forcing external manufacturers to meet our guidlines. What are the car makers going to do, not sell to the UK, or meet our emissions requirements?

If the govt. hit our factories and airports it will cause hardship in those areas. Factories will be unfairly handicapped compared to other countries who can dispense with the cost of such filtration, and our air travel will fall off, hitting our airlines. Also, Heathrow is a hub terminal, many flights touch down there that have originated in other countries, so hitting our flights with tax will only reduce the UK flyers. The rest ofthe world will carry on regardless. That is ignoring the divide it will create between those who can afford to pay the taxes and those who cannot. Are you happy to accept the govt. telling you that you can no longer afford to go abroad for a holiday anymore?

In the scheme of things the british airlines produce very little world co2 pollution.

The govt. have targets to meet and (sadly) the motor trade is one of the easiest targets, however, what should be happening is a world agreement from all countries to reduce emissions and those countries to be forced to stick to it. Without this any reduction in the UK would severly handicap british businesses on a world market, whilst having a negligible effect upon the state of global enviroment change.
 
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What were the stats someone posted a while back? Something like the total man-made contribution to global CO2 emissions being only a few percent and the emissions from all cars being only a few percent of that.

Pointless.
 
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It is a good idea to further reduce emmisions of NOx, SOx, small particles and hydrocarbons as breating these in isnt good for you. A better solution for CO2 would be to plant a load of trees and the like to mop up all the excess CO2 we make :)
 
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I'm freezing my butt of here, it's -10c and I wouldn't mind it to be a bit warmer :D . "Local" pollution causing acid rain etc. must be far more important? :confused:

Fishman was quicker :p . I believe more ethanol powered cars would be nice, as we don't add any more CO2 to the atmosphere than what exists naturally. On the plus side it's a lot cleaner and the engine performs better :cool:
 
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I think the Germans have the purpose of this right, it's an attempt by the french to drag Germany's decent car industry down to french levels...

What about what the consumers want? How about instead of legislating, they give us a decent case to make our own decisions... Legislation or regulation is the poor alternative to actually making a case for change...
 
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volospian said:
In the scheme of things the british airlines produce very little world co2 pollution.

In the scheme of things, British motorists also produce very little co2 polution. This appears to have escaped the governments mind, however.
 
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sablabra said:
Fishman was quicker :p . I believe more ethanol powered cars would be nice, as we don't add any more CO2 to the atmosphere than what exists naturally.

Unfortunately thats a falacy. The actual tailpipe emmisions of CO2 are less running on ethanol, but people convieniently forget/ignore the energy required to produce the ethanol through farming and harvesting grain, manufacturing fertilizers and the fermentation process which is actualy very high. Fermentation actualy emits a substantial amount of CO2 by itself. Ethanol is almost certainly not going to be the main fuel of the future IMO.
 
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[TW]Fox said:
In the scheme of things, British motorists also produce very little co2 polution. This appears to have escaped the governments mind, however.

But they have to hit something to meet european targets and hitting the motorist is not going to cause as much financial fall out for british industries, on a global scale, as hitting the airlines or factories.

Like I said, would you be happier to pay a few quid extra for a brand new car (and, yes, it may affect the second hand car market, but like housing, this also means depreciation is reduced so there is some off set) or not go on holiday abroad anymore because the govt. have taxed it out of your reach?

CO2 emissions HAVE to be cut. and Britian cannot afford to squeeze British companies because of it so the motorist gets hit. Personally I'd prefer to put taxes on electronic goods like inefficient light bulbs and bread makers, and make the savings at the power station.
 
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Dogbreath said:
Unfortunately thats a falacy. The actual tailpipe emmisions of CO2 are less running on ethanol, but people convieniently forget/ignore the energy required to produce the ethanol through farming and harvesting grain, manufacturing fertilizers and the fermentation process which is actualy very high. Fermentation actualy emits a substantial amount of CO2 by itself. Ethanol is almost certainly not going to be the main fuel of the future IMO.

I know for sure that in Sweden this is a big thing. Most fuel stations offer ethanol(85% and 15% petrol) and both Saab and Volvo are aiming for it. Extra power seems attracting to me as well :D
 
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volospian said:
Personally I'd prefer to put taxes on electronic goods like inefficient light bulbs and bread makers, and make the savings at the power station.

In what way are bread makers inefficient? I bet they take a lot less energy than baking bread in an oven.
 
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volospian said:
CO2 emissions HAVE to be cut.

No, they don't. It's like having a big, dusty room and making loads of effort to remove dust from 1 square cm of it whilst the rest of the occupants completely ignore the rest of the room.

Thats what us reducing C02 is like. The Chinese and American economies are driving C02 emissions now, and nothing we can do, even if we stopped using every single car and walked everywhere, would even registered on the scale.
 
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[TW]Fox said:
No, they don't. It's like having a big, dusty room and making loads of effort to remove dust from 1 square cm of it whilst the rest of the occupants completely ignore the rest of the room.

Thats what us reducing C02 is like. The Chinese and American economies are driving C02 emissions now, and nothing we can do, even if we stopped using every single car and walked everywhere, would even registered on the scale.

Agreed, but maybe other countries will follow? America is still putting out more CO2 than any other country as far as I know, but China with their huge demand for more electricity and economical growth is rapidly catching up. Other south asian countries such as taiwan, singapore, thailand, india are also contributing more and more unfortunately...
 
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Blaming the chineese and the americans is convenient, but ultimately everyone adds to the CO2 in the worlds atmosphere.
Making cars greener is always a good idea, but I agree with the above and they might like to start by planting some flipping trees!
 
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sablabra said:
Agreed, but maybe other countries will follow?

This is a pipe dream, it will never happen. All we will ever acheive is the ability to sit on our high horse and say LOOK AT US! LOOK HOW GOOD WE ARE! whilst in the real world, China and America ignore us, we make no appreciable difference to world carbon emissions and are economy implodes as a result of the ridiculous restrictions placed on everything.

China are where we were over 100 years ago, they are having their industrial revolution. Trouble is, China is massively larger than we are, the effect of their industrialisation is many, many times that of ours. They have plans to build nearly 1000 coal fired powerstations, they open new ones every week. Each one of these has something ridiculous like the C02 output of a quarter of our entire vehicle fleet. Just ONE powerstation!

And the Chinese arguement will be 'You had your revolution, you benefited it from it, why should we deny our people the same?'
 
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Stonedofmoo said:
Blaming the chineese and the americans is convenient, but ultimately everyone adds to the CO2 in the worlds atmosphere

We do, but we add very little. Every car in the entire country, for example, adds less than 0.1% to world Carbon emissions. Thats every single car, truck, van and bus!

Lots of effort, financial and economical cost for what? No appreciable gain. Nothing.
 
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[TW]Fox said:
China are where we were over 100 years ago, they are having their industrial revolution. Trouble is, China is massively larger than we are, the effect of their industrialisation is many, many times that of ours. They have plans to build nearly 1000 coal fired powerstations, they open new ones every week. Each one of these has something ridiculous like the C02 output of a quarter of our entire vehicle fleet. Just ONE powerstation!

And the Chinese arguement will be 'You had your revolution, you benefited it from it, why should we deny our people the same?'

True, more than 80% of China's electricity come from coal, and need I remind people there are well over a billion inhabitants in China? :D they are invading large portions of Africa as well to further develop their industry and hunger for steel and raw materials.

I live in Norway though, and they're doing the same thing here. It's like a total disaster when they are about to build the first gas power station ever in Norway, and they demand full expensive CO2 cleaning system of some sort. They also decided to make diesel engines cheaper to meet CO2 standards. However, more and more diesel engines on the street are making the air pollution here worse than with petrol cars.
 
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[TW]Fox said:
No, they don't.

Yes, they do, because that's what the government agreed that they would do.

"As part of the Kyoto Protocol, the UK agreed to a 12.5% cut in emissions." [SOURCE]

[TW]Fox said:
Thats what us reducing C02 is like. The Chinese and American economies are driving C02 emissions now, and nothing we can do, even if we stopped using every single car and walked everywhere, would even registered on the scale.

Hence my very first post:

what should be happening is a world agreement from all countries to reduce emissions and those countries to be forced to stick to it. Without this any reduction in the UK would severly handicap british businesses on a world market, whilst having a negligible effect upon the state of global enviroment change.
 
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[TW]Fox said:
We do, but we add very little. Every car in the entire country, for example, adds less than 0.1% to world Carbon emissions. Thats every single car, truck, van and bus!

Lots of effort, financial and economical cost for what? No appreciable gain. Nothing.

But that attitude is just spiteful. It is not up to us to wait for america or china to cut their emissions first, we must do our part regardless of the state of other nations. Burying our head in the sand and waiting for the big boys to do their bit is not a clever thing to do.
 
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