code masters plans for f1 2011?

[Ravenger]

Absolute rubbish.

This is NOT the retailers fault nor should attempts be made to 'fix' a problem that doesnt exist.

The concept of selling second hand goods is almost as old as time itself. People have a right to sell things they no longer wish to own and they have always had this right.

You don't see car manufacturers trying to destroy the used car market, do you? Can you imagine house builders looking for ways to stop people selling second hand houses?

The games industry thinks its different - it thinks its unfair that people sell on games when they've finished with it and they keep crying about it and making more and more ridiculous ways to try and stop people selling things they no longer want.

The car argument isn't valid because they're not remotely the same thing.

Car manufacturers make a lot of money out of selling parts and servicing for used cars, and a used car is nowhere near as desirable as a brand new one.

The most direct comparisons are books, DVDs and CDs, where the high street retailers do not deal in second hand goods.

Probably Blu-Rays are the closest equvalent because they're a similar format to games, and quite expensive. You don't see HMV selling second hand blu-rays. They don't pester you for trade-ins, they don't try to sell you a second hand copy a quid cheaper. That's partly because the film companies have powerful lobbies and wouldn't stand for it.

You have a perfect right to sell or trade-in your games (except if you're a PC gamer, but that's another, annoying story), BUT the retailers are exploiting the second hand market in a way that's detrimental to the publishers and developers of games, by turning the market on its head, and focusing on used games.

It costs tens of millions of pounds to develop AAA quality games these days, and its already proving difficult enough for decent titles to sell in an increasingly crowded market without games having to compete with their own second hand copies flooding the market.

Something will have to give, and unfortunately it'll be the consumers who suffer if the retailers still focus on second hand above all else, because it will just encourage the market to go digital, like it has on the PC, which means no more trading in at all. You won't even be able to pass on your games to your friends because they'll be locked down like PC games, and even though I'm a game developer, I'm a enthusiastic gamer, and I agree that would be a very bad thing.

 

[pitkin]

You're right Fox. But then the games industry is different. It's the only industry that I can think of, where they can legally sell broken or incorrectly functioning products with asolutely no comeback whatsoever.

And abut piracy, the PS3 has only just been hacked, were PS3 games cheaper before they where pirateable? Piracy is a form of competition to the media industry. If there is no competition in business, what happens to prices? If piracy is eliminated, we will be gouged even more.

And yes, the car industry is just as bad. What were once end user fixes, are deliberately made so difficult and time consuming, (From my own experience with a freinds Renault Megane),that we have litttle choice but to take it to a dealer.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The car argument isn't valid because they're not remotely the same thing.

Yes they are - they are products a consumer buys.

Car manufacturers make a lot of money out of selling parts and servicing for used cars, and a used car is nowhere near as desirable as a brand new one.

Irrelevent.

The most direct comparisons are books, DVDs and CDs, where the high street retailers do not deal in second hand goods.

But there exist many second hand bookshops.

Probably Blu-Rays are the closest equvalent because they're a similar format to games, and quite expensive. You don't see HMV selling second hand blu-rays. They don't pester you for trade-ins, they don't try to sell you a second hand copy a quid cheaper. That's partly because the film companies have powerful lobbies and wouldn't stand for it.

Lots of places sell used DVD's and Blu-rays. Infact I was in HMV a few days ago and they had a preowned section?

You have a perfect right to sell or trade-in your games (except if you're a PC gamer, but that's another, annoying story), BUT the retailers are exploiting the second hand market in a way that's detrimental to the publishers and developers of games, by turning the market on its head, and focusing on used games.

Thats a shame, but thats how markets work and have worked since the dawn of time.

It costs tens of millions of pounds to develop AAA quality games these days, and its already proving difficult enough for decent titles to sell in an increasingly crowded market without games having to compete with their own second hand copies flooding the market.

Back to my point about the games industry having a cry, then. Lots of things cost lots of money to develop. It costs a lot to develop a Dyson hoover and then people buy them on Ebay instead second hand

Something will have to give, and unfortunately it'll be the consumers who suffer if the retailers still focus on second hand above all else, because it will just encourage the market to go digital, like it has on the PC, which means no more trading in at all. You won't even be able to pass on your games to your friends because they'll be locked down like PC games, and even though I'm a game developer, I'm a enthusiastic gamer, and I agree that would be a very bad thing.

Ah, you are a games developer. So that explains why you think you are so special that different rules should apply to your products than apply to the rest of the products in the world for thousands of years.

You make a product. Some people sell second hand versions.

Get over it.

FWIW I don't buy pre-owned games myself, though probably because most of my games are PC and I buy perhaps 1-2 console games a year.

 

[mattjd]

At least there not doing what EA did with Fifa 2011.

You had to authenticate a code to play online which is only able to be activated on one console so if the second hand game had already been activated you could not play online :/

 

[Ravenger]

Ah, you are a games developer. So that explains why you think you are so special that different rules should apply to your products than apply to the rest of the products in the world for thousands of years.

You make a product. Some people sell second hand versions.

Get over it.

FWIW I don't buy pre-owned games myself, though probably because most of my games are PC and I buy perhaps 1-2 console games a year.

I don't think we're special, but when special circumstances are causing immense harm to the industry I work in, then something has to change.

No other media industry is being affected by the second hand market like games are. The scale is unprecedented. We're not talking about a few specialist second hand shops selling used games, like they do for books, CDs, etc. Even supermarkets are getting in on the act. They don't sell any other media second hand.

The scale of the retailer used market is completely unprecedented and unsustainable in the long term, simply because many publishers won't be able to afford the high costs of development if their revenue continues to drop due to this. In my opinion it's a much bigger problem than piracy, because you can't say for certain that a pirated copy is a lost sale, but a used sale for a publisher is definitely a lost sale because the customer bought it.

Remember, this is a completely different issue from your right to sell your games second hand, it's about retailers distorting the market for short-term gain.

 

[pitkin]

Video games are a massive market, selling their product for massive prices (compared to other media). Maybe if games sold for a similar price to music and film then the second hand market wouldn't be so attractive to stores.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The second hand market is attractive because a vast amount of the target market - young people - find affording £50 for a new release quite difficult, therefore the ability to either subsidise that by trading in or buying a preowned copy is very attractive.

It doesnt matter that games are no more expensive than before - the pricepoints are quite high therefore the second hand market thrives.

Your average 15 year old does not have £50 for the latest Fifa.

He does, however, have 3 games he doesnt play anymore and can thus trade in for the latest Fifa.