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Collective punishment in Israel

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by stockhausen, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,854

    Support for this policy of collective punishment does rather tend to call into question the argument that civilians in Israel, the USA and the UK should not be attacked if they only offer tacit support for the actions of their Governments.

    Punishing one person for the actions of another is completely unacceptable in a civilised society.
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,253

    Location: Plymouth

    I would be surprised, but it's Israel, and it seems that guilt still prevents the west from tackling their behaviour properly.

    You're right, of course, that if it's acceptable for them to do collective punishment, then others can claim the same when attacking Israel, the US and the UK.
     
  3. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 17, 2004

    Posts: 3,692

    What about the people killed by terrorist attacks thats collective punishment?
     
  4. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,854

    . . . yes . . . that is rather my point.
     
  5. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 17, 2004

    Posts: 3,692

    If the Palestinians bomb and kill Isreals. Its only right that the familys of those who carried out the attack are collectivly punished. After all the familys of those killed will suffer their losses for the rest of their lifes.
     
  6. lordfletch

    Wise Guy

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    Location: kintyre

    two wrongs dont make a right mate.
     
  7. Dolph

    Man of Honour

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    But that's the same associative logic used to justify terror attacks in the first place, just on a slightly narrower scale (family versus nation)
     
  8. Shaye87

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 29, 2006

    Posts: 1,458

    The thing is that the terrorists shot rockets over israel while they have kids near them on purpose so that israel will be affraid to attack, and even if they will, they are to be blamed....
     
  9. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

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    Posts: 3,692

    There nothing right about the situation they have a choice to do something or do nothing in responce to an attack. As the attackers normaly end up dieing in their attacks, the only real link left that can be proven to the attacker is their family. Its not as if these are one off attacks, these have been a string of attack that have been unending for generations.

    What should Isreal do to stop these attack? Give into their demands?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  10. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

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    Posts: 3,692


    What can be done? Doing nothing when faced with terrorism is not an option.
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

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    Location: Plymouth

    It largely depends on what the demands of the terrorists are and whether they have any basis in reality, and negotiating from there.

    In the case of Israel, the Palestinians still have a good point in objecting to the theft of their land, the refusal to give it back and the ongoing repression of them by the israeli's...
     
  12. inferno

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2004

    Posts: 1,729

    We need to collectively punish Israel!
     
  13. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

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    Posts: 3,692

    This is not the 1900s any more, most of the Palestinian population today are desendants of immigants that have no more claim to that land than the Isreals. But if thats their case for their claim to that land, the Jews are the only people who can realy lye claim to that land. After all they where there first.
     
  14. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

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    Posts: 3,692

    Or the whole Middle East.
     
  15. Dolph

    Man of Honour

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    Most of the jews in israel are also immigrants, that point is somewhat moot.

    What about the systematic oppression of palestinians by the Israeli state?

    Unfortunately, Israel is a good demonstration of what happens when democracy goes too far and you end up with Mob rule, combined with a hatred or dislike of groups of people, systematic oppression, supported by the majority, should still be unacceptable in a civilised society. Punish those who do wrong, not those who hold different beliefs or who might be associated with those who you believe have done wrong, and that applies to all on both sides.

    The whole lot need to grow up and join the rest of the civilised world.
     
  16. Chimerical

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 21, 2007

    Posts: 5,487

    Too true.

    This war's been going on long enough now. They're fighting for nothing. The Palestinian's think they're fighting for land but that's junk, its merely a vendetta war nowadays i.e. you killed my child, so now I'm killing you and your family.

    Going on and on about how Israel was created and the Jews claim to land from ancient times is all nonsense, from both sides. You can't sit there fighting a war over issues that don't matter and are so old and long in the tooth, that they're dead in the ground. One side needs to act as the bigger man and literally cease all fire, even if they continue to sustain losses.

    I mean, if my family was killed by a missile, would I then walk onto a bus and blow up 40 children? No. Whatever I did do, it would not be that.
     
  17. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,854

    And you base this remarkable insight into the motivations of the Palestinians on what exactly?

    It may not matter to you, but I suspect that you are not some Palestinian refugee living in poverty.

    If the Palestinians did that, I don't think that they would have any hope of achieving anything. If the Israelis did it, the Palestinians would almost certainly take the opportunity to rearm, build better (but still entirely pointless) defences and increase their primitive rocket attacks on Israel - a development which the Israelis probably would not tolerate for long.

    I'm sure you wouldn't. Starting from the same position as the Palestinians but sitting in the comfort and security of your home in wherever, what exactly do you think you might do to regain your home?


    Israel is supported to the tune of billions of US Dollars every year. The Americans (as well as the UK and most of Europe) are clearly happier to see the present situation continue than to tell Israel to comply with the many UN resolutions requiring it to give up the land that it acquired by force. Israel consistently refuses to compensate displaced Palestinians and to allow them the right of return to their original homes. The USA has vetoed countless similar UN resolutions.

    The Israelis are reasonably happy with the current position because the longer it persists, the more that people such as yourself will say "It all happened a long time ago and we simply have to accept the facts on the ground". The Israelis hope that in time, the Palestinian refugees in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere will be accepted by Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries and Israel can ebe expanded to take in all the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (Greater Israel).

    If you ignore a crime for long enough, an effective "Statute of limitations" will make it acceptable.
     
  18. Orcish-Horde

    Mobster

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    Its a moot point for both sides, but the palestinians would like everyone to think other wises.

    The palestinians are as much to blame for their oppression as the Israelis, play the terror game in where in the world and that is what you will get. Its not nice but thats life.



    When two differing populations live on the same piece of land all you get is mob rule. Democracy doen't realy work in this case, just look at N Ireland.

    In an ideal world full of civil thinking people your right but thats not the world we live in. There are nutters every where and always will be.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2008
  19. The Running Man

    Caporegime

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    Location: block 16, cell 12

    its bad logic, like saying that US bombed x civillians in Iraq, therefore iraqis have the right to bomb the families of all those US servicemen involved...:/
     
  20. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    So what should those Iraqi's do? Just accept what is being done to them? How can you retaliate against such an overwhelming force?

    Brutality breeds brutality, but it seems to be the brutality of the retaliators is the only one condemned and even thought about.

    The first suicide bombing in Israel took place in 1982 - which was fourty years after the state of Israel was created. In those fourty years the number of Palestinian civilians killed outnumberd Israeli's by a massive factor. Only once the number of Israeli's being killed increased due to the brutal suicide attacks did the civilised nations take notice - and only then at the brutality of the Palestinians.