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Conflict in Gaza, Lebanon & Israel

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Rotty, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. Rotty

    Don

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    The original thread has been closed as it was getting very disjointed and sometimes unpleasant

    A new thread has been started so that sensible debate on an important topic can be continued

    This forum is designed for intelligent debate so please feel free to contribute in such a manner, please try and give reasoned argument and not flippant one line replies

    If there are breaches of forum rules then please use the RTM feature but remember that moderators are here to help and to maintain forum rules and standards and not to moderate posts which express a different opinion to your own
     
  2. Sleepy

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    UNIFIL Sitting Ducks Not Evacuated

    Wonderfull more human shields for Hezbollah to exploit.

    Edit Old thread here
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006
  3. Hector

    Capodecina

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    don't israel use human shields? i think so and in israel's case they work.. when used against israel they fail as israel won't let some innocent people get in the way of killing a suspect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  4. Sleepy

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    Sheikh Nasrallah Boasts on Al-Manar TV:
    The following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah, which aired on Al-Manar TV on July 29, 2006 Source

    Nasrallah claim of victory by merely surviving reflects the incredibly low asperations of Israels enemies nowadays. Gone are the days when Arab leaders expected to win wars. Nope victory is standing up to the IDF and not getting blown to kingdom come, of course your country sees the gains made from 15 years of peace wiped out and hundreds killed but no doubt Hezbollah doesn't give a fig about this apart from how it plays on the TV's of the west.

    And lets be honest the allies in Desert Storm launched more sorties on the opening night than the IDF have sent against Hezbollah in the 20 odd days of the conflict so far. With all the talk about how good the Israelies are they are so very few in number.
     
  5. calnen

    Mobster

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    I think the thread was meant more to discuss the morality (or otherwise) of Israel's position, rather than its military strength. It seems pretty much a given that Israel isnt going to be destroyed by Hezbollah, but does the fact that they have dropped fewer bombs on lebanon than we have on afghanistan make their position more morally justifiable?
     
  6. Heliospherez

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    Any republic/nation that uses armed force against another nation (especially a nation less has less than 1% of its military size/power) is morally unjustified in my opinion.

    And just to show the ratio of power here....the hezbollah are estimated to have 3000 followers....the IDF have 170,000 with the ability to mobilize 400,000, and considering the Isreales have received over 5 billion dollars for weapons and arms development from the US, and have produced some of the worst and most destructive weapons in history....well... :rolleyes:that says it all for me.

    War is bad...and a country such as Isreal, that is classed as the world leader in the manufacture of weapons and military stength for size ( a few examples of their top class manufacturing include the Uzi and the desert Eagle) - But feel free argue differently.

    Just for the record - Isreal are one of only a few nations that has refused to state whether they have a nuclear arsenal - even though it has been known that they have produced nukes since the 70's and the US has not taken any action ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  7. Sleepy

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    Size is irrelevant, the only factors a country needs to take into account are what its enemy has done/is going to do/is capable of. If the provocation justifies force and no other alternative suggess itself then force is acceptable. As is readily apparent from recent history a small organisiation can inflict casualties that are disproportionate relative to the size of the causitve force.

    The fact that a terrorist organisation is small doesn't mean that the Israelis should just sit back and let there soldiers be attacked and their citizens reduced to living in bunkers or fleeing to safety.
    But its not allways the worst option.
     
  8. Heliospherez

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    But even during the first few days of the conflict - the IDF broke their own rules of war - so the fact they have no ethics, leads me to think their relentless bombings are totally unecessary and shameful.

    here

    or look "code of conduct against terrorists" here
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  9. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

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    The only problem is that Israel are apologising and saying things are regrettable. If they believe they are right then they should say so, rather than pretending they are extra humane because they apologise after killing civilians. If this is self-defence then there is no room for remorse or pussyfooting.

    For the record, I am still of the mindset that Israel are taking a neccessary option as any other would involve passively allowing Hizbollah to attack. Civilians deaths are regrettable, but I mostly blame Hizbollah for these.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  10. Sleepy

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    First off you claim the IDF have violated their own standards, but to do so requires a deliberate act. Its an accepted, if unfortunate, fact of war that collateral damage occurs. Especially when your enemies tactics are designed to maximise unnesseccary civilain casualties.

    As an aside although Hezbollah is aterrorist organisition its military arm is formidible. Hence the use of conventional military units abd tactics. This isn't a low intsitiy conflict, this is modern war in all its brutal glory, so your 2nd reference isn't applicable though they are pretty similar to the usual ROE's that western armies operate by.

    OT & @CBS: Help, don't get your new sig
     
  11. cleanbluesky

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    Sleepy, perhaps you should repost your 'magic aidworker' blogpiece from earlier... I found it particularly enlightening as to how this situation is being handled in Lebanon

    OT & @ Sleepy: It's the Burger King 'King'. I think its because they present him as almost supernatural.
     
  12. Sleepy

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    Can't Link removed by Mod

    Superman = Christ Analogy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  13. cleanbluesky

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    Chrsitian discourse and construction I'm afraid, Christ is a rip off of Osiris, Quetzacotl and Viracocha. No-one has exclusive claim to that cultural myth/legacy, they are all equally valid and belong to us all I'm afriad...
     
  14. Shackley

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    I believe these to be facts:
    Israel is one of the most militarily powerful nations in the world
    Israel has a very extensive military R&D & manufacturing capability
    Israel is one of the world's largest exporters of military hardware
    Israel is consistently supported economically, militarily and politically by the world's only superpower
    Neither Hizbullah, Hamas nor any state in the Middle East can even begin to compete militarily with Israel

    The question of the right of Israel to exist is open to debate. Whether Israel is obeying or should obey UN Security Councils resolutions is also open to debate.

    In such a situation, an enemy of Israel simply bends over and takes it or tries to fight as best it can. If you can't overcome by might, you try to make life as uncomfortable as possible for your opponent so that eventually they accept a compromise. You also try to convince those who may have some influence that you have right on your side. Hizbullah & Hamas are doing what they can on the former and failing pretty miserably on the latter. I believe that it is the duty of those outside the Middle East who wish to see justice prevail to show that Israel is acting immorally.

    With these points in mind, I would encourage you to read the following analysis by Amnesty International of the behaviour of Israel and Hizbullah - http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE150702006.

    Having read it, make your own judgement as to whether or not you believe that Israel is acting proportionately - entirely without regard to Israel's past actions or its right to exist.

    Water:
    Link 1
    Link 2
    Link 3
    Link 4
    Link 5
    Link 6
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2007
  15. Sharkypal

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    You know whats funny, and Im not taking a stab at you. You and some others here consistently go on about how war is good and how it's the only option for Israel etc. I'd be very interested to know how many of you have actually seen combat (Dont say you have if you havent just to try and validate your argument)

    The way you ignore certain facts and consistently push for war indicates to me that you have never been in combat and really don't understand how bad this situation is and further to that just how much worse it can get (and not just for the Arabs)

    It is blatantly obvious that this is being allowed to continue in the hope that Iran will commit. This will give the US, through the use of Israeli airpower no doubt, an excuse to take out Iran's nuclear facilities. So many people believe that the US is an Israeli puppet, but it works both ways.

    While I am not against removing Iran's Nuclear capability (I'd also like to see Israel lose theirs tbh), why does it have to be done at the expense of so many Arab and Israeli lives. If they have to have a war, fair enough. This isn't a war at all, its a means to an end.

    The US knows it doesn't have the public opinion or world backing to attack Iran overtly, so they cooked up this nonsense so they could do it covertly. You can be sure of one thing, Israel has NOT mobilised its entire armed forces to rescue 2 soldiers.

    S
     
  16. cleanbluesky

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    Again, as long as Israel is under threat I don't believe that Israel is acting immorally. How else should Israel react when attacked?

    Using the full extent of one's military prowess to defend yourself is not and never disproportionate. This term is being applied as biased discourse, to suggest that Israel are somehow being unfair, yet to suggest so does not properly illustrate the way that Hizbollah are parading corpses and encouraging civilian casualties.

    The reason that Israel are making so many casualties is that so many people are simply not getting involved. Where is the Lebenese government while Hizbollah are firiing from resitdential areas? Do they not care? Does it not make Hizbollah an enemy of Lebanon to invite war into civilian areas?
     
  17. Shackley

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    Over the past few weeks, many people have wondered why Hizbullah chose this precise moment to launch an attack on Israel. The most obvious answer would seem to be to either to support Hamas in Gaza or to regain their position as the most effective opposition to Israel. However, despite the impression given in the media, this attack is not the first since the Israeli withdrawal in 2000. Hizbullah have launched attacks on Israel pretty consistently for the past 5 or 6 years. The reasons for this are basically those quoted by Hizbullah when they captured the two Israeli soldiers over two weeks ago, to get:
    o prisoners freed from Israeli jails
    o Israel to return the Shebaa Farms area

    Over and above this, there are more than 400,000 Israeli landmines planted in Israel, crippling the local economy and meaning that it hasn't been safe for the original residents to return to their homes. Israel refuses to provide a map showing the locations of the landmines, despite requests by various parties, including the UN.

    Ever since withdrawing, Israel has regularly overflown not only the South of Lebanon but the whole country, including Beirut. These flights would be considered 'acts of war' against Lebanon and have been criticised consistently by the UN. Many have been at supersonic speeds, causing sonic booms that can only be intended to terrorise the Lebanese population.

    This is not a new war, just a serious escalation of an ongoing dispute. Whether the Israeli government really believes that it will change anything, or as some have suggested, is an attempt by the USA and Israel to involve Syria and Iran in a full-scale Middle Eastern conflict is open to debate. Certainly, one gets no indication that either the USA or Israel would be bothered if either Syria or Iran were to become directly involved.

    I guess that one other explanation could be that the USA is more than happy to have the media spotlight removed from the complete disaster that is Iraq.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  18. Nixeh

    Hitman

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    Location: Bristol/Portsmouth, England

    Israel i think have got the right idea in mind. To take out hezbollah is a good thing... im no defender of hezbollah, but israel are using a bazooka to take out a fly, thats how unbalanced it is and how over the top their attack is.

    I am suprised that they are not using special ops and the odd incursion to go into lebanon to take out high ranking people in hezbollah, and their bases.

    The fact that they are levelling near on everything is the thing that annoys me the most. They do it all the time, the only time i can remember them using a precise way of seeking out their enemy was during the aftermath of the munich games masacre.

    Israel isnt killing hezbollah, they are strengthening it, and thats what they want. If they took out their high ranking officials in a series of 'assassinations' then it would knock back hezbollah a lot more then what they are doing now.

    Which makes me think, why are they using this amount of force to squash such a small force.

    For me personally im starting to think that this is nothing more then a land grab. If you look at whats happened and what israel has said.

    They have a right to defend their citizens from further rocket attacks from south lebanon, so they bomb and start small incursions to create a '20 mile buffer zone'. Now the UN wanted to setup a multinational peace force to maintain this buffer zone, but since the bombing of UN observers, countries are very cautious about commiting soldiers on the ground.

    What does this mean? Well Israel has said that if there is no Multi-national force, then they would have to protect the buffer zone theirselves, which would basically mean an occupation of south lebanon by Israeli forces.

    So what happens then? Could be 3 things

    1) This stops the war and everything calms down (very unlikely)

    2) Hebollah strikes back on israeli targets within the 20mile buffer zne, causing israel to move further into lebanon to create a bigger buffer zone to stop rocket attacks on its troops within the buffer zone.

    3) Hezbollah strikes back on israeli targets within the 20mile buffer zone, causing israel to strengthen its force in the buffer zone, create longer term bases and maybe even setup a wall to defend their troops and citizens within the buffer zone... landing up in a big land grab for israel.

    I think a ceasefire is much needed, not for hezbollah but for the innocent people in lebanon that have been caught up in this violent and gruesome bloodbath. Israel can still attack just on a more covert tactic using smaller, deadlier and more effective units to slowly break down hezbollah.

    Hope this doesnt create some flaming and hope to hear back on what you think about what i think :p

    And yes ive probably missed 1 or 2 things out but ill sort that out when they are addressed.. anyway back to work for me :)
     
  19. deadsquirrel

    Hitman

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    Did you see newsnight last night? HE WAS THERE!!! WHo is that guy?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

    fast forward to 3:15
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  20. Ricochet J

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    I don't quite understand this, so if someone could correct me, that'd be great.

    What i'm seeing is Isreal is fighting a war on two fronts. Palestine and Lebanon. Right, the main news right now is about the Lebanon crises.
    However, Bush says "This cannot go on. Something must be done." Then why an earth is Bush still supplying Isreal with bombs? Not mention using UK (Scotland's) airports for his dirty work?

    Furthermore, the Isreal and Lebanon conflict will not stop anytime soon. Isreal showed reluctance to cease fire, until, Hezbullah rockets have been neautrilised and their soldiers have been returned.
    However, if I recall correctly, there is still a matter of another soldier in Palestine that got captured. Why doesn't Isreal stir up as big of a fuss up there?

    Do you really see this coming to a war anytime soon? I believe so, however, a short detremental war. This is what I predict, however, I appreciate users will not share the same opinions as me. I predict, other Middle East countreis will join and engange in the conflict against Isreal which will initiate a heavy American support for Isreal in the war. I doubt the UK will get heavily involved, however, they will try to use their power projection to encourage peace.