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Conflict in Gaza, Lebanon & Israel

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Rotty, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    How nice.

    When are the media going to start calling this 'conflict' what it really is? A civil war.

    Link
     
  2. anarchist

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  3. Shackley

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    Yup, it's ironic isn't it. Just a few years ago, Fatah was the great enemy of Israel and America. Now that they have been punished by the Palestinian people for their corruption and incompetence and replaced by the effective and democratically elected Hamas, Fatah have suddenly become America and Israel's "Great and Trusted Friends".

    It seems somehow reminiscent of America's "Great and Trusted Friends" in Saudi Arabia and previously in Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq.
     
  4. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

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    ....and currently in Sudan.
     
  5. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    I welcome this measure. I've made no secret of the fact that if I had to make a choice I would choose Abbas.

    I think Egypt too realised the opportunity that if they will ever see any form of peace in Palestine, the militants have to go. The Israelis will never accept it if a bunch of militants are running Palestine.

    There's a danger though that this will just become (if it isn't already) a proxy war against the Iranians instead of the civil war that it currently is.
     
  6. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    Sudan chose the Chinese as replacements right?
     
  7. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    It's truly barbaric how both sides are behaving in this civil war:-





    :mad:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6747207.stm
     
  8. anarchist

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    But according to that article I posted, the US and Israel are funding Fatah, who are themselves militants.
     
  9. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    Undoubtedly they are.

    But Abbas can't go after peace with Hamas launching attacks on both him and Israel. I see it as similar to the conflict in NI, until you have conditions for peace, nothing will move forward. If they need to conduct a civil war so that he comes out on top, so be it. Nothing will ever move forward as things stand.
     
  10. Shackley

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    Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures

    The UN's Middle East envoy lists four significant issues
    • The international boycott of the Palestinians, introduced after Hamas won elections last year, was "at best extremely short-sighted" and had "devastating consequences" for the Palestinian people
    • Israel has adopted an "essentially rejectionist" stance towards the Palestinians
    • The Quartet of Middle East negotiators - the US, the EU, Russia and the UN - has become a "side-show"
    • The Palestinian record of stopping violence against Israel is "patchy at best, reprehensible at worst"
    He also points out that "The US was clearly pushing for a confrontation between Fatah and Hamas" - United they stand, divided they fall - and Israel can continue with its illegal expansion and occupation.

    The report criticises the Palestinians for their violence which seems more than likley to descend into open civil war, and Israel for extending its illegal settlements and barrier into the West Bank.


    Mr de Soto argues that Israeli policies have encouraged continued Palestinian militancy - gosh, what a surprise, I am quite sure that that can't be intentional :eek:

    He wonders if the Israeli authorities realise that, season after season, they are reaping what they sow, and are systematically pushing along the violence / repression cycle to the point where it is self-propelling? Since Mr de Soto was the highest ranking UN official in Israel and has considered this possibility, I am reasonably confident that he would have mentioned the possibility to the Israelis, so I think that it is safe to say that the Israelis know what they are doing, and what they hope to achieve by ensuring instability and continued conflict within Palestine and by the Palestinians towards Israel.
     
  11. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    Alvaro de Soto, I remember him as the completely useless UN official who tried to get involved in the situation here in Myanmar.

    Another 'career' UN diplomat who spews rubbish as far as I am concerned.

    Anyway, the UN has no real say in what goes on there, that's the real point to his report. It's sour grapes.
     
  12. anarchist

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    What does Abbas want though, with regard to the Israel/Palestine situation?

    And aren't Hamas just defending themselves from Fatah, who are trying to overthrow them?
     
  13. Shackley

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    Power? Access to funds?

    I think that Hamas are trying to gain absolute power; Fatah likewise - the difference being that Hamas has a massive mandate from the Palestinian people.


    It is ironic that if you read the Wiki entry on Mahmoud Abbas, it mentions that "he resigned citing lack of support from Israel and the United States as well as 'internal incitement' against his government.".

    How things have changed in less than four years.
     
  14. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    He seeks a Palestinian state that realises Israel's right to exist.

    Or vice versa? Christ knows who started the latest round of fighting, they're as bad as each other in that respect. If the leaders on both sides are to believed, then they both appear pretty impotent, both have "ordered" a cease fire, make of that what you will!
     
  15. anarchist

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    And a nice quote from Abbas here...

    And yet here he is now, basically - with the US - funding terrorists to overthrow a democratically elected government. So, like with the US, democracy is all very well so long as it produces the "right" result.
     
  16. anarchist

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    I suspect it started, or was seeded rather, when Hamas got into power.
     
  17. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    Well it's not quite as clear cut as that though is it?

    Do you think Hamas, who were elected, agreed to power sharing talks with Fatah because the weather was sunny that day?;) There's good reason as to why there has been a flurry of shuttle diplomacy in the region in recent months, especially by M.E countries. The US uses its influence in its own best interests, but then again, so did Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. There's nothing new about that.
     
  18. anarchist

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    I haven't been following the Fatah/Hamas talks, I just noticed when they started fighting. What is your take on the power sharing talks?

    True, just a shame that they (all countries) are not open about it, rather than keep pretending that they are doing things for humanitarian reasons, or whatever the "excuse of the month" happens to be.
     
  19. i know nothing

    Mobster

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    Well with the current state of play I think it is fair to describe their agreement as a joke. This is one of the reasons I think so many people lose interest in the Palestinians, just when you think there's a chance of peace and stability, they attack each other.

    It's another reason why I'm so scornful of those who suggest that it is part of some 'master plan' by the Israelis or the US. The Palestinians would be aware of that by now! These troubles have been going on for decades. When people suggest it, it does nothing more than insult the Palestinians.

    Now I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I've never seen the US hide the fact that they support Abbas. They've mentioned it time and time again in White House press releases, Rice has been publicly interviewed about it, I saw her talking about it on CNN.
     
  20. Shackley

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    I wonder when this love fest started?
    I'm sure that without looking too hard, if you really wanted to, you could find plenty of other examples of the USA being opposed to Abbas whenever he actually had a chance to do anything constructive.


    Certainly Abbas doesn't seem to share your view that the Americans have always supported him. They may do now, since they realise that the Palestinians have actually voted for the more efficient and less corrupt Hamas - an act of desperate temporary convenience on the part of the Americans to be honest.