1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Could God simply be an intelligent system emergent from complexity?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by kwerk, May 12, 2019.

  1. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,765

    You can't really extrapolate backwards from an Ant to us and apply that from us to Gods - if and that is very much an if some kind of creator exists, and lets pretend that is god, then both we and the Ant would be its creation.

    We've detected nothing but Gods don't exist? I know there is a whole school of thought over that but that we haven't detected "god(s)" doesn't eliminate the potential for them to exist - we are far from establishing that we are alone in this universe never mind the potential for the existence of anything else.
     
  2. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    No, we are 100% Alone, pure FACT you can argue potentiality to the cows come home right now and for the past 2019 years (actually more but lets keep it really simple...) we are alone.

    I am quite happy in this situation, it would be great to detect a radio signal from some long gone civilisation do not get me wrong. But GODS... yeah whatever...
     
  3. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,299

    Location: London

    You do realise how large the universe is don't you and the length of time it takes light (let alone radio signals) to travel to us from distant galaxies (let alone the far reaches of our own galaxy)? All the light and signals we are now able to detect are thousands, millions, in some cases billions of years old. We have absolutely no way of knowing with our current technology what exactly is happening right now, this minute, in those far flung galaxies.

    So it's rather daft to declare it a "FACT" that we're alone when we have absolutely no way of conclusively proving this. The universe could be teeming with life right now for all we know, but the evidence of that (the signals etc) will take many thousands or millions of years to reach us. The universe is also expanding, so those distances are constantly growing. Humans have been on this planet of a bare blip of these sorts of timescales.

    Now if you were to argue that because of the distances and timescales involved we might never get to encounter or even detect other lifeforms that might exist in the universe, then there's certainly a strong case for that. But it's impossible to categorically state we're alone (even if the realities of distance mean we effectively are). Humans are such a narcissistic species to think we are the centre of and most important thing in the universe.
     
  4. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    Read what i put.... long dead civilisation i am perefectly aware of how large the cosmos is, at least to my pea side brain can comprehend at least.

    So until it happens.... we are alone.
     
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,765

    We can't even tell for certain whether Oumuamua is a natural object never mind anything further out - the only thing that is fact about being alone is what we know to the limits of our own knowledge.
     
  6. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,734

    Location: Cornwall

    You can say, "We have not seen evidence of any other intelligent life except that which exists on Earth." You could stretch that (just about) to, "As far as we can tell, we are alone."

    What you absolutely cannot say is, "We are 100% alone - FACT." Because that statement is absolute. It is a statement of universal truth. And it cannot be proven.

    If it cannot be proven but you insist it is an absolute fact - then this is the same kind of dogmatic thinking religious people are often slated for.
     
  7. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    Its a FACT as we have detected nothing in 50 years + Until that changes that at some point we are alone but even then they will not be gods.....
     
  8. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,299

    Location: London

    It is a fact there is no life out there that we have so far been able to detect. However, it is not a fact that this means we can say conclusively there is no life out there.

    We are only alone in the sense that we have not yet made any contact or detected anything we recognise as life. This last point is crucial - we are assuming that any other advanced lifeform has developed along the same lines as us and will be using methods of communication or leave traces of itself we are capable of detecting. Human science is still young and on a universal timescale it might still be very young indeed. Or we might be ahead of the game, we've no way of knowing and may never know because of the distances involved.

    Perhaps we're better off staying 'alone' anyway. As Stephen Hawking once put it: "we should be wary of answering back. Meeting an advanced civilization could be like Native Americans encountering Columbus. That didn't turn out so well". Or alternatively, given the impact our species has had on Earth, it might not work out very well for anywhere else we might find that has life.

    Your last point I'd certainly agree on though.
     
  9. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    Well the distances as they are we effectively alone anyway, so maybe just swapping text messages is enough. Its not as if we could actually meet them with our technology level in any shape or form.

    Maybe a probe with a nuclear battery the size of a bus would do it and i am sure that would go down very well when they have a look at it and all drop dead :)

    Unless of course they are GODS and just pop right next to me in a instant........ now.
     
  10. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    UPDATE

    No gods popped into existence or appeared at the side of me.
     
  11. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,765

    Bit off topic and there are endless possibilities but I find it much more likely we are amongst the first civilisations to emerge, if there are any out there, than there are significantly advanced civilisations. As we aren't seeing the signs of large numbers of civilisations out there also I think a very slim chance that we'd exist at the same time as another advanced civilisation - in most cases there is probably only a few 10s of thousands of years any civilisation exists for unless they become very advanced very quickly due to factors like dying out due to genetic reasons, original planet becoming uninhabitable naturally (solar flares/GRBs, asteroid impacts, etc.) or due to intense industrialisation, etc. etc.
     
  12. MrRockliffe

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 14, 2014

    Posts: 2,734

    Location: Loughborough

    Assuming genders now are we? :p
     
  13. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 41,321

    How is it a fact? You don't know whether there is other life present in the universe or not, how would you? What relevance does 50 years have here - are you unaware of potential distances involved here?
     
  14. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    Because that is all the scientific DATA we have available to us, as in listening for radio signals is 50 years give or take, a couple of thousand years watching the stars and from all of that ZERO evidence of life anywhere else apart from our little blue DOT.

    I am not saying its not out their after-all its big place (and i answered that in a previous post, but nice Troll fail anyway) but currently GODS or little green men are science fiction...
     
  15. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 41,321

    This is very muddled, so it isn't fact after all. The existence of alien life is simply unknown, I don't think you appreciate the scale of the universe or indeed how insignificant the amount of time we've even existed for is as listening to radio signals for 50 years is a rather silly thing to cite.
     
  16. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,299

    Location: London

    Well, even if we are co-existing in the universe with multiple advanced civilisations right now, right this minute, it's highly unlikely that we will ever be in a position to communicate with them or encounter them because of the vast distances involved and the time it takes for signals, indeed even light, to travel, let alone physical travel. The nearest stars to us are about 4 light years away, the furthest in our own galaxy about 900k light years away and then the next galaxy Andromeda is about 2 million light years away. And it just keeps rising from there.

    Unless there's some way of warping space and/or time that exists outside of the realm of sci-fi then we aren't going to get much exploring done in the length of time our civilisation will be active. It's far more likely that some future civilisation elsewhere in the universe will detect traces of us, by which time we'll be long gone.
     
  17. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,467

    Hence my original post, long dead civilisation....

    But it would be nice to know :)

    It might even kick off another massive expansion of humanity to our solar system, I could see that happening within the next 100 years or so. Maybe GOD(S) will pop in to help us.
     
  18. TheOracle

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 30, 2005

    Posts: 11,151

    If god did appear to you, you wouldn't know
     
  19. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,321

    Take god out of the argument.

    Its a fact we have not determined alien life existing on any other planets.

    When we look at the universe as a whole the idea occurs that we may not be alone.

    Its an emergent property of the system.

    Its not determined by the fact that as far as I know no life exists on the Moon.
    That would be a fallacy of division. Life does not exist on the moon therefore......

    The emergent property of a system is different from a determined property of system.

    Its useful to define the term.

    It helps determine how determined the system actually is.
     
  20. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,790

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Whether the fabled "God" exists or not - hes made a **** job of it, so i'll have nothing to do with it/him/her/them

    50 years in our terms is like listening for your kids making noise in the garden, and 50 years ago at the most basic level because our technology wasnt great back then

    it is a fact though