1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Council Tax - Is it too high?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Psycho Sonny, Aug 16, 2018.

  1. Admiral Huddy

    Don

    Joined: Feb 17, 2003

    Posts: 29,107

    Location: Chelmsford & Broadgate

    what about when all those people under that roof are earning?

    If they are paying UK tax above the standard PTA, then i don't see why individuals can't pay. Simply, put, n% on income tax and abolish the ridiculous layer all altogether.
     
  2. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 61,557

    Assumedly your son contributes towards household costs, etc. so a percentage is going towards council tax and it isn't like council tax isn't fairly high as it is.
     
  3. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 5,728

    Council tax is a deeply flawed tax as were Rates before it. Poll tax was a failed attempt to improve things. Council tax should be lowered and property based and a greater central tax pot raised and distributed on a needs basis. Local councils should then have discretionary tax raising powers that are entirely within their control.

    The tie to ones relative house value is perverse. I moved from the South East to Wales, pretty much the same pay, same outgoings and same value house. I jumped from a band B to a band G a massive increase in council tax. I was no better off, all my outgoings were largely the same mortgage, leccy, gas, food, petrol, clothes. But now I'm expected to pay considerably more council tax because I live in a relatively expensive house in a low house price area having previously lived in a relatively low priced house in a very high price house area, my houses were the same value in both places and I used similar amounts of local services.
     
  4. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,224

    Totally agree, however due to the way the UK political system is set up, i.e IDEOLOGY driven politics driven by the establishment and the few who get indoctrinated at Cambridge/Oxford nothing is going to change, apart from a big revolution with guns.

    Labour needs to die, its done it part and is outdated same as the Tory scum.
     
  5. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Huh? The poll tax was completely ignorant of how many were in any house. The poll tax was shared equally amongst all those able to pay in an area.

    Spare cash was exactly my point. Single pensioner living in a great big old house could pay many many times under council tax what a family with 4 working adults in another would pay.
    The current system also has no link to ability to pay either.

    No taxation is fair by default, this is quite key. The fairness is an arbitrary individual assessment.
    The point of the poll tax did take the house out of the equation, and basically everyone did pay an equal amount, did you actually ever pay it? It seems your understanding is very poor on what was actually impletmented
     
  6. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,224

    It was implemented as Tory ideology it hit the poor hardest.....

    While not paper it did not reflect housing, in practice the well off couple with 1 kid was minted due them paying less overall, while the poor family who shared the rates in one house suddenly was massively out of pocket.

    If it was a fair system do you think the riots and downfall of Thatcher would have happend.

    Tory policy against the less well off. BUSINESS AS USUAL.

    My understand is fine, I refused to pay it and ended up with all the letters/threats etc.
     
  7. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 11,852

    There isn't enough of a discount for single living tbh. 2 people have to pay X amount but 1 person only gets 3% off :/
     
  8. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,466

    Location: Lincs

    ?

    Single person discount is 25%
     
  9. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    It can be varied by local councils

    My area is 25% as well, but they did consult on changing it, at the same time as the second home premium etc
     
  10. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,466

    Location: Lincs

    Are you sure about that? As on the .gov site it just says 25%, and I've never known anywhere do anything but that

    https://www.gov.uk/council-tax/who-has-to-pay

     
  11. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Yes definately
    We were asked to comment on
    - Single person discount
    - Second home premium
    - Benefit claiming discount
    - one other that I forget

    In the end I think they just changed the second home one to a higher rate

    Actually thinking about it, I think the last option was removing the zero rating you can get if undertaking building works and not living there. Has to be something like a non functional kitchen/bathroom
     
  12. Slam62

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 3, 2006

    Posts: 7,192

    Location: Monaco

    Council tax is very unfair as its not proportional to the ability to pay, a house should not be regarded as wealth if it is your only place to live, now if you sell and take the cash, perhaps that should be treated differently.

    But no one will agree on this subject as there now exists huge disparities in people's positions.

    Make housing a lot more affordable, people have more disposable income
     
  13. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,466

    Location: Lincs

    They may have asked you the question, but I still don't think they could have changed it :p

    It's covered under the Local Govt Finance Act 1992 (AFAIK)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/11

    Which says :

    So that to me says only the Govt can change the %
     
  14. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Yeah i believe the process is they have to apply for it
    Where as the rest i believe they can do under their normal powers, not sure on welfare discount one, maybe that also needs other authorisation

    But anyway I am sure most people who bothered to reply would have been to screw the second home owners ;)

    EDIT, as as far as getting it granted I think its pretty much a no as the bad press would kill them.
    Thats why they tend to cut services instead.

    I don't think 25% discount is unfair personally, but equally there should probably be a +25% loading per house above 2 adults as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  15. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    As I said before, all taxation is unfair, to someone, as its always possible to take a view contrary to the policy based on personal position.

    The poll tax was a step in the right direction realistically but too many objected due to it being "unfair", where as most people also recognised that rates and council tax are also unfair
    Some people don't like change, and when it involves taxes, unless everyone is better off, which is pretty much unsustainable, there will be winners and losers.

    The problem is that linking local services costs to house prices does in no way link the share of services to the ability to pay
    However those who don't really think about it just say its to screw the poor

    The biggest increases in council tax recently happened under labour

    If you open up the council tax to the conversation of what should and shouldnt be included you will get just as much dissent as the method of collection.

    TLDR, people dont like taxes. 1000+ years in and still unchanged ;)
     
  16. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,521

    Location: Canada

    The premise of this whole thread is flawed. People in Canada pay property tax, based on the exact (assessed) value of your home. There are no bands based on outdated valuations from the 80's.

    It'll vary but essentially each town/city and area decides how much they need each year, then calculate the total value of housing stock and divide the two to get a percentage, which everyone then pays. In my city it works out as about 0.005% and as such we get a bill that tells us our (specific - next door may be different even with a very similar house) house is assessed at X and we need to pay 0.005% of that, which is Y. Average house price in my city is around $500,000 (£300k) which means mean property tax is around $2,500 (£1,500) - or pretty much the same as the average council tax in the UK.

    I'm not sure I particularly like the tax paid to your local authority being based solely on house price, but it's a better system than the banding in council tax, especially when it's not been updated in 30 years, meaning houses with grossly different values end up with the same bill.

    Vancouver is a prime example. The reason property tax seems to be so "cheap" is because the average house price went up throughout the city, but the actual budgetary requirements stayed broadly the same, so everyone pays basically the same amount no matter market fluctuation. If the housing market crashes in that region and the average house goes from $2m to $200,000 the average bill will still be the broadly the same (but the tax rate will go up by 10x). Only if your specific house goes up in value relative to the ones around it do you pay more.

    Vancouvers sums are:
    Property tax rate 0.0031%
    Average house price:$1.1m
    Average property tax =$3,400 (£2,000)

    So in fact Vancouver itself has a higher council/property tax rate than the UK, contrary to the OP. So, as much as the houses are bigger, the average 3 bedroomed family home is going to pay more tax in Vancouver than the average 3 bedroomed home in the UK.

    As for tax, the average salary in British Columbia is ~$50k (£30,000) and the UK is ~£30k ($50,000), while cost of living is broadly the same so they are pretty comparable. The BC resident will take home 80% of that (~$40k) while the UK resident will take home around 80% of that (£24k), so tax rate is pretty much the same, although you're right, VAT/GST is slightly cheaper in most of Canada (varies by province). While I don't live in BC (I live next door) I've found, after living here two years, that there's really not much in it.
     
  17. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,787

    Location: Vvardenfell

    It sounds like the Canadian system suffers the same problem that the UK system has always suffered from though: areas where people are rich have high house prices, and thus contain people who usually have no problem in paying a lot but have little need of services, so less needs to be raised. Areas full of poor people have low house prices, people who cannot afford to pay much, but a large need for services, thus a need for more money. Yes, this is a generalisation, but a good one. This of course is the real reason that Tory Councils tend to have lower Council Tax, not better economics. But whatever system you have, you need to allow for this. And the system you put in place needs to be politician-proof, so that a new government can't just twist the formula to help out councils that in the same Party.
     
  18. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,089

    Atleast the Canadians are attempting to deal with it's property crisis, while the UK blissfully subsidises it into infinite.
     
  19. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,758

    As a country we need to get away from the idea lower taxes = better society.
     
  20. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,497

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    Council tax is a terrible tax, I don’t understand how they can justify it being linked to house prices at all, especially when you rent the house, the value is irrelevant in that aspect.

    I prefer the labour idea they floated at the last election.

    Why? Is it higher taxes = better society?