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Defining 'the left'

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Vexr, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. MadMossy

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    Joined: Oct 25, 2004

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    Location: Sunny Torbaydos

    So the chap who doused himself in petrol and threatened to set himself a light outside Parliament as a protest against Brexit. Is he left or right wing. Eitherway seems a bit extreme.
     
  2. Blackjack Davy

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    New Labour was a deliberate image branding to try and get away from the beer and sandwiches and donkey jackets of Foot et al and Blair pushed it further trying to turn the party into a middle class one. Middle classes have never traditionally been Labour voters and this was a deliberate attempt to appeal to a middle ground of voters. And it worked up to a point until he got mired into the Gulf War and bogged down with legalities of his decision and money pit vanity projects like the Millennium Dome did for his reputation. The ideology of Brown was little different to that of previous Labour party leaders such as Callaghan, Wilson etc who were on the Right of the party. The Corbynistas and Momentum is a significant lurch away not only from the middle ground but towards to the Left of traditional Labour.

    Once upon a time the Labour Party was just that, a party dedicated to improving the lot of the working man who just wanted better conditions and wages, its mostly about ideology these days.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  3. StriderX

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    Well the better conditions exist and wages aren't trash, so it's hardly a surprise. I'm sure there's still room to improve, but it's a lot harder to campaign on as it starts getting rather complex what with the working revolution that's rolling towards us. It's unfortunately a lot easier to just scream about taxes.
     
  4. Tony Edwards

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    LOL I wasnt being serious. I was being sarcastic about not wanting nazis on my streets, although I dont want nazis on my streets or anywhere and lets be honest the far right are acting a lot like nazis at the moment. They and their left wing counter parts need to get a check on themselves.

    I dont care for antifa if Im honest, but saying that Im glad it was an actual event rather than them just being arseholes to an old couple going about their daily routine. At the same time I did wonder why an old couple saw some crazy protestors and thought yes lets cross here.

    What sort of right wing opposition party? Are we talking Libdem type right wing or far right like BXP or EDL?
     
  5. Efour

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    Location: Norrbotten, Sweden.

    Dont know dont care, its Canada=Dont care. Just asked for context.
     
  6. Tony Edwards

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    Posts: 3,337

    Sorry I was just curious and thought that you might have done a bit more research than I could be bothered to do, which is none at all. I checked the twitter thing and it was not helpful and I just cant be arsed to bother to find out. :D
     
  7. Panos

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    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

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    Location: Under the hot sun.

    I will try bellow to put my thoughts to @Vexr query of "defining the left".

    The whole subject is that we need to define what we refer to the "Left" and consequently what is "Right".

    Is "Left" the Communism where nationalism, strong moralism is instilled inside their ideology and nanny state? (China, Cuba, Vietnam to name a few)

    Is "Left" the nationality-nihilists, who promote globalization at any cost, going to extreme measure against anyone opposing their ideology? Even if their actions are against the interests of their own countries, which they do not believe to? (Antifa comes here and various supporters like SYRIZA party in Greece, NGOs)

    Is "Left" the Euro-Socialism, who believe both in sharing everything for the common good but also isn't going against the capital believing in a balance of some short, yet also are Nationalists? (example New Labour, German Socialists, SNP)

    Is "Left" those who on the other hand want the complete control of capitalism, strongly believe in distribution of wealth, are against globalization however don't see negatively immigration to those useful to the economy? (Labour under Corbyn among others).

    Is "Right" those pro-capitalism who not believing in distribution of wealth and if you do not have money you should die on the streets? (USA good example).

    Is "Right" those who believe in some social security, universal healthcare up to a point, but also are pro capitalism, free economy and opposing a nanny state? (pre-Cameron/May Conservatives, Christian Democrats in Germany, Putin's Party in Russia)

    Personally I am in the grey area of pro-capitalism & meritocracy, but with social security, free education at all levels, patriotism and against nanny state. So anything UK was between 2003 when came to the country and 2011 (and to some extend 2015). After that went pear shape in some of the above and completely lost it's way since 2016 referendum.

    If that's what "New Labour" was about, minus the wars I am for it.

    Can write more but is 23:56 atm.
     
  8. robgmun

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    Turns out it was something to do with a parking dispute that wasn't getting resolved. He was giving out leaflets to that effect
     
  9. Nasher

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    You just cant deal with that kind of crazy tbh.
     
  10. Tony Edwards

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    And yet we have too daily.
     
  11. Nasher

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    They dictate policy now.
     
  12. VincentHanna

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    Yes, the left dictate policy in the UK

    Even though we've had a Tory-led government for nearly 10 years....
     
  13. robgmun

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    That's why we need to have a GE and refresh parliament
     
  14. Tony Edwards

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    How the hell would it refresh parliament? The moderates have left the Tory party and the so called moderate Labour MPs cant accept their own leader. If we get more Tories they will be even worse than the present lot if it is Cummings and JRM choosing the candidates and if we get more Labour MPs the so called moderate Labour MPs will throw their toys out their prams again.

    The only thing that will refresh parliament is to drop brexit and get on with running the country and actualy start the reinvestment that Boris is claiming he will do. If you cant see the trouble these hard right nutcases have caused the country then you need your head examined. The Tories are as bad for the UK as the DUP is for NI. They have both caused the shut down of their parliament because they dont want to do something they should be doing.

    Hell defining the left? we should be trying to define the right because they are just a bunch of crazy cats in a sack at the moment. I always knew the Tories were a bunch of ***** but what they are doing to this country now is disgusting. They dont even need a financial crash to bring the country down, just right wing ideology.
     
  15. Terminal_Boy

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    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

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    Location: La France

    I’m agreeing with Mr. Edwards again. The End Times are clearly upon us.
     
  16. BowdonUK

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    I was going to reply about what I define as left and right wing, then it got so confusing that I think we need to move away from simplistic and meaningless phrases, at least when talking about groups. Because what someone might call right wing might be different to what someone else calls right wing, and I suspect this is the same on the left too.

    I think we should move to terms like is this "for the people" or is it "against the people"?

    I know these days there are a lot of nutcases around and speaking up, that they wouldn't have done 20 years ago. Politics seems to be all over the media every day and night 24/7. Apart from celebrities, fashion, cooking, and reality shows, everything else goes back to politics. It's the modern poison of this world. That it makes ordinary people start going off half-cocked, not understanding the subjects they are talking about, and beating people up in order to stop fascism :rolleyes:. It would be funny if it wasn't so crazy. There will come a time when there is going to be a backlash to this stupidity. History always swings back and forth.
     
  17. Nasher

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    They are in power, but it's the far left nutters who are pushing nonsense on the public. Like all the LGBT+ and ironic "diversity" nonsense which is being plastered everywhere.
     
  18. RDM

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    How much has this actually affected your life though? I can't really think of any changes I have had to make because of LGBT+ and diversity.
     
  19. Freakbro

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    Well, he does have to waste a portion of his life moaning on the internet about the theoretical effects it could have on his life
     
  20. Nasher

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    Apart from it being shoehorned in to everything on TV and in movies and the ridiculous training videos/presentations/courses about it we have to sit through at work...

    No one actually gives a ****, but we have to endure it anyway. Because reasons.