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Democracy needs to change

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by ultralaser, Oct 29, 2017.

  1. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

    Most of the things you've written, are complete nonsense.
    The East will never get as wealthy as the west. Throw this out of your mind.

    The East loses its populations with rapid speeds which is the ingredient for an economic disaster in the future. You can't build wealthy economy on populations with elderly people and gypsies.

    After this, I stop reading any further :D :rolleyes:
     
  2. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,629

    Location: Surrey

    To be honest, if we are calling people out for nonsense 4K8KW10, so far in this thread about democracy you have:

    Claimed Sweden is poor
    Shown jealous hate for Germans/Germany
    Claim the only way forward is for the east (where you are from) to end up with the money.
    Quoted huge walls of text with no substance to add to the thread and barely a line of your own text to go with them.

    I am guessing, i am with others on this one. I will say Greek!
     
  3. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

    I have put them, so you read them. I have read them several times and made the conclusions for me. Not gonna say anything more. No comment from me is needed ;)
     
  4. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,576

    Location: Cambridge

    Maybe if you read the figures you'd learn something.

    These are the projected 50 year GDP per capita growth figures (2005 - 2055) for Germany and Poland/Latvia if they continue to grow at the same rate as they have since 2004.

    If you see, in around 20 years time the gap has shrunk to that of the difference between Germany and Spain today. In 30 years time there will virtual parity, beyond that Poland/Latvia will exceed German GDP per capita figures... if historic relative growth rates are maintained.

    Germany
    40,000 - 2005
    40,400
    40,804
    41,212
    41,624
    42,040 - 2010
    42,461
    42,885
    43,314
    43,747
    44,185
    44,627
    45,073 - 2017 (Today)
    45,524
    45,979
    46,439 - 2020
    46,903
    47,372
    47,846
    48,324
    48,808
    49,296
    49,789
    50,287
    50,789
    51,297- 2030
    51,810
    52,328
    52,852
    53,380
    53,914
    54,453
    54,998
    55,548
    56,103
    56,664 - 2040
    57,231
    57,803
    58,381
    58,965
    59,555
    60,150
    60,752
    61,359
    61,973
    62,592 - 2050
    63,218
    63,851
    64,489
    65,134
    65,785 - 2055

    Poland/Latvia
    10,000 - 2005
    10,400
    10,816
    11,249
    11,699
    12,167 - 2010
    12,653
    13,159
    13,686
    14,233
    14,802
    15,395
    16,010 - 2017 (Today)
    16,651
    17,317
    18,009 - 2020
    18,730
    19,479
    20,258
    21,068
    21,911
    22,788
    23,699
    24,647
    25,633
    26,658 - 2030
    27,725
    28,834
    29,987
    31,187
    32,434
    33,731
    35,081
    36,484
    37,943
    39,461 - 2040
    41,039
    42,681
    44,388
    46,164
    48,010
    49,931
    51,928
    54,005
    56,165
    58,412 - 2050
    60,748
    63,178
    65,705
    68,333
    71,067 - 2055

    As Albert Einstein said "the power of compound interest growth, the most powerful force in the universe."

    What you're trying to do is conflate the crisis some European countries (namely Greece), with a wider European problem which is fictional.

    Given the above, and that this is a thread about democracy. What is democratic about forcing richer western nations to simple hand of money to the east against their will?

    You don't seem to be interested in facts or democracy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  5. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,629

    Location: Surrey

  6. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,109

    Location: On the hoods

    That really depends on whether you believe that Latvia will maintain 4% growth for the next 40 years, and Germany will only manage 1% for the next 40 years. Of course you can make the numbers fit if you make the right assumptions.

    I'm also not sure how useful a measure of wealth GDP per Capita is, but then I'm no economist. Surely it's more a measure of growth and productivity than actual wealth.
     
  7. MikeTheNative

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 7,903

    Location: South Wales

    It wasn't as bad here but the Trump/Hillary battle was more about talking **** about one another than what each candidate was going to do.
     
  8. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,109

    Location: On the hoods

    Funny how politicians only get around to saying anything useful, interesting or true once they've stopped working on the frontline.
     
  9. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,629

    Location: Surrey

    Ofc course, he doesn't have to worry about it being used against him or the party a week later when :p

    That said, i cant help but feel that the internet and social media has somewhat changed the playing field. Before opinions on matters were created from conversation and reading articles but now a lot of politics seem to be about controlling the catchphrases on the headlines and the xxx amount of characters someone can share on twitter/FB. Now it seems articles are just there to fluff the headline rather than the headline having the purpose of catching the reader for the article.
     
  10. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,109

    Location: On the hoods

    It's all about the soundbites and the short attention spans.
     
  11. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,576

    Location: Cambridge

    It does make that assumption. But that assumption has been true for 13 years. It's to be expected that percentage growth will slow as they reach parity.

    I'm not seriously suggesting that wealth in Poland will exceed that in Germany, but I would say that they are sure to fall inline with the EU average (around 37,000 USD) at some point over the next 20-30 years, and thereafter, some states will go on to be "wealthy" Europeans.

    GDP per capita is the easiest way to compare countries relative wealth imo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  12. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,219

    That was Trump's strategy. Hillary mostly concerned herself with her campaign, which is liekly why she lost because she wasn't mud slinging as much as the great Orange Bafoon.
     
  13. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

    The more important is to calculate at what wealth level, the population will reverse its decline.
    Currently, despite the population decline, there is a GDP growth in the absolute numbers.
    But, very soon, the economy should show signs of being constrained by the lack of new, fresh members in the population to sustain the growth.
    So, that 4% growth in GDP per capita will keep for a while because the base line in Latvia had been far too low, and there had been far wide a space for growth.
     
  14. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,576

    Location: Cambridge

    Decline in working age population is a problem accross the developed world. There are two solutions. More imigration, or more sex. Since most states in the East have made it abundantly clear they don't want immigrants, I guess they need to get to bed.

    I'm struggling to see what this has to do with democracy.

    Yes, that was kind of my point. Given the opportunity, less developed countries grow faster than their more developed counterparts.
     
  15. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

    The migrants from the Middle East themselves aren't that crazy to stay in Eastern Europe. Even if we invite them :D
    The countries in Eastern Europe are developing countries in all measures, but they pretend to be developed, hence the degradation overall, lack of proper culture and ultimately, the decline in populations.
    The developed countries can, at least, counter this problem by allowing migrants to go there. But in the future, because the migrants are intellectually and culturely less talented, their economies should begin to struggle too.

    It is connected with the topics because in some way if we find working solutions, we will live in a more fair world where wealth is divided between more people.

    Oh, and it isn't about going to bed, but about readiness to accept new members in the families, and using less protection against having babies.
     
  16. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,376

    I think the issue is that we use technology to make the world consistent with ourself and our own cultural perspectives. Its what we do when the walls of the world come tumbling down.

    When European explorers first landed in New Guinea, they panned the rivers looking for gold. The local people assumed that Europeans were ancestral spirits returned from the land of the dead, they were searching the river for their own bones, which had been thrown in.

    Despite evidence to the contrary from those brave enough to look it was widely held that Europeans turned into skeletons at night.

    When confronted with difference people turn to what they know and seek to impose that perspective on the world.

    How could it be other than what I know to be true?

    The example may seem ridiculous, but what we think about brexeters, ********** etc etc may be little different and the product of the same mind doing what it does when confronted with what is alien to it and outside of its own experience.
     
  17. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

  18. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 7,173

    What do you think about this? :)

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...28?li=AAmiR2Z&MSCC=1511194121&ocid=spartanntp

     
  19. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,888

    We have quite a healthy system compared to other countries when it comes to voting, representation, financial restrictions and rules on campaigns and donations.

    The only thing I'd add that we should have is restricting how many can be in a political block inside parliament. Since political parties have been allowed to sit in parliament (from day 1) its been very easy to bribe and control them. You only need to bribe the top people and the whole party as to vote a certain way (with whips no less!).

    So I would set a maximum limit on how many people can be officially listed as being part of a voting block (political party).

    P.S. I would also have proportional representation, similar to how the european elections are done.
     
  20. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,345

    We elect M.P.s to make decisions on our behalf which we hope are also decisions which will be best for the country - whilst not perfect I don't know of any system that is.

    As for our collective voices setting the agenda. Well we tried that last year in a referendum - just look how thats' turned out. You're crediting the electorate with political knowledge and know how, which I think is a pretty big stretch.