Do people realise how bad the Ambulance service is right now?

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Just privatise the entire service and let the American insurance companies run it.
That's certainly a way for governments to abdicate the responsibility for fixing it. I'm my opinion the jury is out on whether, on balance, that's best for patients. Certainly the evidence from America does not convince me its a more user friendly and efficient way of providing care.
 
Soldato
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I doubt many, including those of us who work in Ambulance Services, really understand the issues at play but I have a few observations:

1: Demand has increased, though I suspect that staffing numbers have increased too. I don't think it's fair to blame users of the service for the problems. At least not exclusively.
2: Ambulance Services are under greater pressure than ever to treat at scene. When I started over 11 years ago the main focus was on safely transporting patients to hospital. If you were a diabetic having a hypo you quite possibly went to hospital. Now you'll quite likely be treated at home. This is usually great for those patients, and should be recognised as good patient care but it does mean crews spend longer on scene than they used to and may mean that additional staff attend to facilitate treatment the first crew on scene recognise is likely to allow the patient to be left at home but can't administer themselves, thus reducing the nu!bet of available resources.
3: As mentioned turn around times at A/E are longer than they have been. If there are no beds in A/E for patients arriving by ambulance and they're too unwell or vulnerable to wait in the waiting room crews can't free up. There's no space in A/E because there's no beds for the patients in A/E to be moved into and those beds aren't free, in part, because social care is a mess and those requiring it spend longer than clinically necessary in hospitals while it is arranged.
4: Demand and (at least perceived) disinterest and unacceptable delays accessing primary health care either from NHS111/NHS24 or GPs is 'forcing' some to call 999 for things they perhaps wouldn't otherwise call for. This could also be said for social problems too. While these calls don't always generate an ambulance response they do take up service time and resources regardless. This is partly down to a lack of GPS and other primary health care practitioners.
5: A higher percentage of patients are more ill than they perhaps need to be. Whether that's because chronic condition management and routine testing stopped during the early Covid pandemic and therefore problems went unnoticed until they became emergencies or for other reasons I don't know.
6: Staff sickness and retention is a problem. I make roughly the living wage and I have delivered babies, I have talked people through CPR more times than I can count, including on babies and children and in a variety of horrific circumstances. Working overnight at Tesco stacking shelves would be a lot less responsibility and stress for not really that much less money. I know of many people in my service who have left or are actively looking to leave. Vocation or not, there comes a point when enough is enough. I
7: Poverty with its associated poor mental, substance misuse, crime, poor diet and low exercise levels, is also a factor I think. Poor people are really struggling and that affects their health.

I'm not sure how you fix things. Addressing some of these things, or all of them would help I think. It takes money but it also takes a longer term, joined up approach - something government's are poor at. You can't look at any one part of our social matrix in isolation. You can't fix the ambulance service with improving social care, without improving social equality, without improving education etc. It's all connected

Sounds like what your saying is the country is just ******.
 
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And yet they have no funding or programmes to train people in this country to fill those positions.
That's a long term solution. It takes 5 years of medical school to qualify as a doctor, 3 or 4 to qualify as a nurse. Similar for a paramedic. Just training more people, assuming you could find them from the existing UK population is not going to fix the recruitment and retention problem.
 
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That's a long term solution. It takes 5 years of medical school to qualify as a doctor, 3 or 4 to qualify as a nurse. Similar for a paramedic. Just training more people, assuming you could find them from the existing UK population is not going to fix the recruitment and retention problem.

It is indeed long term. Why haven't they been doing it? The NHS has had staffing level issues for a very long time.
 
Caporegime
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It is indeed long term. Why haven't they been doing it? The NHS has had staffing level issues for a very long time.
Everyone wants a quick fix as it's cheaper, makes for good press and you don't want to invest long term for the opposition to look good when they come in. The Government kicks the NHS round every 5 years and has little vision beyond that it feels.

Need more GPs/nurses/hospital doctors etc - it's always import them, never invest in local training. Everyone is replaced with someone cheaper and less skilled - physicians associates, nursing associates. Nursing is broken, as soon as nurses get really experienced they're shuffled off into managerial or nursing specialist roles
 
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Everyone wants a quick fix as it's cheaper, makes for good press and you don't want to invest long term for the opposition to look good when they come in. The Government kicks the NHS round every 5 years and has little vision beyond that it feels.

Need more GPs/nurses/doctors etc - it's always import them, never invest in local training.

I looked in to retraining as a doctor about 6 or 7 years ago when oil and gas went to pot. I thankfully wasn't made redundant but many were.

50k uni fees, which because I already have a degree I would have to pay annually. Supporting myself throughout so let's say 10k per year. That's before you factor in anyone that might have a family to support.
Then there's the wage hit at the start and a potential posting to a hospital/practice far away. I think I worked out it would probably have cost me about 500k in lost salary alone before I was back on what I was earning. That was fine, I and others I worked with were happy to take that hit but it was the uni fees that were the crippling factor. Because of those costs it just wasn't financially possible.
 
Caporegime
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I looked in to retraining as a doctor about 6 or 7 years ago when oil and gas went to pot. I thankfully wasn't made redundant but many were.

50k uni fees, which because I already have a degree I would have to pay annually. Supporting myself throughout so let's say 10k per year. That's before you factor in anyone that might have a family to support.
Then there's the wage hit at the start and a potential posting to a hospital/practice far away. I think I worked out it would probably have cost me about 500k in lost salary alone before I was back on what I was earning. That was fine, I and others I worked with were happy to take that hit but it was the uni fees that were the crippling factor. Because of those costs it just wasn't financially possible.
Wasn't it yourself suggesting medics that really cared should be working for minimum wage just the other day?

Now your saying pay is a barrier to entry to medicine? :cry:
 
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And the wage hit at the start? And reaching parity with your previous pay.

Then there's the wage hit at the start and a potential posting to a hospital/practice far away. I think I worked out it would probably have cost me about 500k in lost salary alone before I was back on what I was earning. That was fine, I and others I worked with were happy to take that hit

Ta da.

You'll notice I also didn't say they should be working for minimum wage. I said if patients were their number 1 priority they would. You then succinctly proved my point by stating your family were your number 1 priority. I don't disagree with your morals there at all, that's perfectly fine.
 
Caporegime
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Ta da.

You'll notice I also didn't say they should be working for minimum wage. I said if patients were their number 1 priority they would. You then succinctly proved my point by stating your family were your number 1 priority. I don't disagree with your morals there at all, that's perfectly fine.

It was utter tripe previously and your arguments haven't matured since the last time. We probably should just leave it be.

Clearly you recognise the financial implications of medical training and as a career long term because it stopped you from doing it, as it stops many other people. That's progress atleast. This is where the Government falls down. It doesn't train enough people, it doesn't value them financially or professionally, it makes little effort to keep the staff it's got.

A national training programme of funded university places for STEM/medicine/nursing/teaching would be such a sensible approach and yet it seems impossible to contemplate the Government doing it.
 
Caporegime
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It was utter tripe previously and your arguments haven't matured well. We probably should just leave it be.

Clearly you recognise the financial implications of medical training and as a career long term because it stopped you from doing it, as it stops many other people. That's progress atleast.

The financial implications for someone moving from another career who has to pay for training up front, not via student loans. Which also having existing student loans. A key difference.
 
Caporegime
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The financial implications for someone moving from another career who has to pay for training up front, not via student loans. Which also having existing student loans. A key difference.
Even without a previous career people have to way up the long training, debt, pay, working conditions, progression etc vs alternatives. That's what I did, naively at 18. I could have earnt more elsewhere but medicine wasn't too bad overall (it has changed substantially since). Many of my peers went elsewhere for shorter training and far higher pay.

Student loans aren't free money, you've got to pay them back. I had a good 45K of debt by the end of med school and that was almost 15 years ago.

A previous career makes that potentially a more expensive move but also you may be at a more financial secure point of your life.

At the end of the day, we just don't invest in local training or existing staff and nothing has changed regarding this in my time in medicine.
 
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Caporegime
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Even without a previous career people have to way up the long training, debt, pay, working conditions, progression etc vs alternatives. That's what I did, naively at 18. I could habe earnt more elsewhere but medicine wasn't too bad overall. Many of my peers went elsewhere for shorter training and far higher pay.

Student loans aren't free money, you've got to pay them back. I had a good 45K of debt by the end of med school and that was almost 15 years ago.

A previous career makes that potentially a more expensive move but also you may be at a more financial secure point of your life.
Or people have kids, mortgages, loans etc by that point.
There's a big difference between a student loan when you're 18, which you don't have to pay off until you're earning above the threshold, and paying 10k per year when you're not earning.
 
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