1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Do you believe in god or a divine entity?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gabbatek, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. Pocah

    Suspended

    Joined: Jul 11, 2017

    Posts: 819

    I have been thinking about this, this morning. I have always thought that even these days the belief that we have a soul often comes from an individuals inability to accept or understand that we just come from nowhere when we are born and go nowhere when we die. I mean when you think hard about that, in particular the death part, it's very difficult to deal with the idea that we just stop existing. I suspect for many, many people they just can't deal with such a cruel ending to life. But you know while I was thinking I suddenly thought of something else. I used to think of a soul as a tangible entity, a puff of luminous dust or something. But what if it's not? A human can die but the thoughts they had while they were alive never die. And surely that is entirely true for a soul too. What defines you are your thoughts, your personality, your beliefs, your feelings, loves, hates, passions. These are not tangible items. They can not die. So are these your soul? Because if they are then you do have a soul and it lives on even after your death. YOU gave these things life and they can never die.
     
  2. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    I think the reason people are questioning life after death is because science as become a lot more available these days. Science can only factually talk about things that have happened or are happening. If someone is talking about death then by science fact once the physical body dies thats it. But science can't as a matter of fact tell us what happens at the moment of death with the soul. It can give us theories of what it thinks, based of the science remit, what will happen. Quite a few people take these theories as fact and dismiss any alternative.

    Science and religion arent at odds with each other. It is only the part of science that makes theories will naturally spark debate. It's kind of sad that we have puritans of science saying once science as made a theory then it immediately becomes fact and everything else is rubbish. That is people using science for their own uses to find an answer. It is interesting that those that want to believe a theory is a fact aren't that dissimilar to those religious people who have their own theory of life after death.

    Whether you believe a science theory or a (Christian) religious theory at the point of death you are going to sleep.
     
  3. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    If I have a passion or hate for something that I keep secret from everyone, does that passion/hatred continue after I die or does it stop there and then? Of course it disappears with me. What survives is people's memories of me.

    I place as much 'faith' in people telling me that we all have a soul as I do with the people telling me they can contact the dead, i.e. none.

    Why do you assume the soul exists?

    Do you also believe ghosts exist? If not, what criteria does a belief in ghosts fail to meet? Does a belief in a soul meet that same criteria?
    Now replace ghosts with anything that only needs faith to believe it exists - does it also meet that criteria?

    Science and religion most definitely are at odds*.
    As an example of one major conflict: were humans created as described in the Torah and Quran (i.e. Adam & Eve) or did we evolve from primitive single celled organisms over many millions of years?

    One claims to have all the answers if you have enough faith, the other doesn't.
    Science deals with facts and evidence and really doesn't care one iota if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
    Religion requires faith - that's it.

    * At least Christianity is prepared to embrace, at least partially, some scientific claims.
     
  4. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    The shape of clouds can be random, the eye has never been observed coming into existence by random chance, all men are born of woman and we come into this world with nature already present, humans discover natural things yes.
     
  5. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    What visual construction would be perfect?

    Superior to what?

    This statement suggests you know better?, so, can you do a better job of it? show us your works?

    Better than what?
     
  6. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    Excellent, we seem to making progress.
    Now you need to comprehend the colossal time frames in which these evolutionary changes occurred so that you can understand why we haven't been able to observe the full evolution of the eye.
     
  7. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    Amoeba to man evolution is not an irrefutable scientific fact, it's impossible to scientifically demonstrate anything in the unobservable past, the past in a scientific sense is based on the assumption about the present conditions which could of been much different than they are today thousands of years ago.
     
  8. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    Depends what is meant by evolution? Charles Darwin's gradual evolution appears highly unlikely for such a complex organ as the eye, the problem with all of this is it can't be demonstrated in the present, all the parts need to be in the correct position and place for the complex human eye to function which rules out darwin's gradual evolution, imho.
     
  9. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    Hundreds of millions of years, not thousands.
    Highly unlikely or ruled out? Plus highly unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.
     
  10. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    I think I'm not explaining myself clearly enough when I talk about a soul.

    Without an awakened soul you would be like an animal living on instincts. You wouldn't have any mental individuality to the person next to you.

    Science can't explain how you appeared in that body when you became born. When the question of death comes along it can only answer death in physical terms i.e. the body dies and so does everything else. But that doesn't tell the full picture.

    Are you saying nobody has a soul?
     
  11. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    I still think you are mistaking our personalities, our self-awareness, our individuality, our consciousness, etc as a soul.
    These are character traits that develop over time and with exposure to a whole host of stimuli, from your parents, siblings, friends, things you watch, things you read, places you go, etc, etc. What separates us from animals is our highly evolved brains, our sentience, our ability to problem solve, the list goes on.

    If I've got it wrong, then apologies, but the definition of soul is generally regarded as "the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal".
    I don't believe a soul exists due to a lack of compelling evidence and that its origins stem from the man-made concepts of god and the afterlife (although I reserve the right to change my mind if such things are ever proven true).
    I tend to put everything like gods, afterlife, miracles, ghosts, etc under the same label of "extraordinary things claimed to exist without sufficient evidence" - without good reason to believe a claim is true, there is literally no point in believing it.

    Why do you think there is more to it when you said "that isn't the full picture"?
     
  12. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    There is no irrefutable proof whatsoever that a soul is seperate from flesh and bone, there is no irrefutable proof that the concept of the soul of man is immortal. There is no evidence.
     
  13. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 15,556

    Location: Lincs

    Hold on, I'm not even paying attention to this thread and even I saw Angilions post just a few days ago that debunks that argument!

    I'll quote it below since you obviously missed it first time around


     
  14. DAIR

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jul 23, 2009

    Posts: 8,676

    Location: Cayman Islands

    I think I do believe in some sort of hire power. I mean I find it hard o believe that we (humans and other "living" organisms) simply popped into existence.

    I don't think I have to be "religious" to think this way..
     
  15. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    I never missed his assertions. It's a load of old scrap, try reverse engineering the human eye for real and then tell me it functions correctly, the whole ideology of eye evolution from simple to complex over millions of years is unproven science, to me it is absurd. Species evolving for millions of years on planet earth is one of the biggest pork pies ever made, fakers in a fakery baking fakes.
     
  16. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,241

    In one respect you might be right - with the recent discovery of more than 13,000 white dwarf starts within 100 parsec it is now thought that roughly every 2.5 million years the Earth receives a significant enough gamma ray burst from a supernova to trigger significant changes to organic life with some dying out and others going through various degrees of change meaning that the normal pace of change probably isn't responsible for a lot of what we see but rather rapid bursts around these events.
     
  17. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    I think my use of the word soul is probably incorrect. I wasn't aware that the word already had a set meaning.

    I'm meaning at the moment a baby is created that in the early years we have our own self awareness. Something that no other creature on the planet has. I'm reluctant to use another word to replace soul. But I need to use a word or else it'll be even more difficult to express my thought. I'll use the word; being.

    I think at the very core of each person we have our own being or voice. I don't know if you do this but when I read there is a voice in my head that is reading what my eyes are seeing. No other creature on the planet has an inner voice.

    Ironically the fact that religion exists, faith, as no evolutionary benefit, yet it is there. What other creature has a religion?

    I know I'm not going to convince you as I'm struggling to use the correct language. I'm not a religious expert. I do have sympathy for the evolutionary theory. But in my opinion it doesnt account for everything. Like many ideas in the modern word, people take a snap shot of life now and assume its always been like that. When even in our grandparents to our life time we have seen events happen that have changed the world that were never forecast.

    Our influence and impact on the world and the universe represents less than a grain of sand in a desert. Yet we have people coming out with definate answers. We are still learning.

    I think whether people believe in a science theory of life and death, or a religion, both are looking for answers, which man (and woman) have been doing from the beginning of creation.

    I have a question, in evolution theroy, isn't the pre-evolved supposed to die off?
     
  18. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    I generally agree with what you are saying. But I think you are saying, there is no proof now, and there never will be? I keep an open mind.

    Do you think in the future it will be possible to transfer your soul / being in to either a robot or another body? I'm assuming your answer would be no?
     
  19. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 6,058

    Other species are self aware

    Https://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/10-animals-with-self-awareness.html

    Also as to your point regarding religion has no evolutionary benefit..so what? Neither do many other things. Like the useless box . Humans write and create things. So what? Doesn't prove your religion is true nor it was written meanz it's true, it's just a work of fiction like every other work of fiction.
     
  20. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    You point me to a site about lucid dreaming that tries to sell me a book with every click I press on the site :rolleyes:

    In your zealous objective to dismantle religion you acknowledged the point I was making.