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Do you believe in god or a divine entity?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gabbatek, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,914

    I wouldn't say dolphins have no self-awareness. They are intelligent and actually have sex for pleasure. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140613-do-animals-have-sex-for-fun

    Not to mention there are theories according to which any object around us is alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry

    Thing
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  2. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    Lots to answer there, and I'm on my phone so I'll try and reply in an orderly fashion!

    To claim that no other animal is self-aware isn't true. You only have to watch a nature documentary to see baby animals reach a level of independence far quicker than human babies - chimpanzees are an excellent example.

    Isn't the voice in your head just your brain? I'll dismiss your comment about no other creature having an inner voice as it's just an assertion. Unless of course you have peer reviewed journals detailing your investigations and experiments into how all animal brains work?

    As for animal religion, once they've discovered money, greed and power, religion won't be far behind. ;)

    Evolution isn't about describing 'everything', it makes no comment on how life began.

    I do agree that we will always be learning, but saying that religion is looking for answers is just absurd: all religions claim to have the answer (i.e. "God did it") yet cannot offer any detail as to how he did it, it's always "mysterious ways" or "our simple minds cannot comprehend God's powers" or "who are we to question the Almighty". There's never an answer, just more mystery and shifting of goalposts.

    I can't answer your last question, sorry!
     
  3. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,679

    It might depend on the definition of what a soul is? human beings have different interpretations of what a soul is, people have all kinds of theories about all kinds of things and a theory does not necessarily equate to fact or irrefutable proof. Every able or capapble person has access to all the natural phenomena around us, it is up to the individual to do their own study and research and draw their own conclusions. Nothing more I can say.
     
  4. kedge

    Mobster

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    Posts: 3,679

    Evolutionary scientists make all kinds of assertions about origins, Prof Richard Dawkins is just one of many advocates of evolutionary origins.
     
  5. Pocah

    Suspended

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    Posts: 819

    Firstly I don't assume anything, you are assuming you know how I think, and you don't know me well enough to know that.

    But I disagree with you that science and religion are at odds. I am sure that some religions have problems with science, but not all. Religions deal with things that science does not understand. How is that at odds? I mean I think you are misunderstanding what science is, or what it does. Science does not deal in fact. Fact implies some absolute truth or other, which science actually does not know.
    Science deals in observations. It looks at the world and tries to express it mathematically. That gives science amazing power, but it doesn't explain WHY the universe is the way it is. If you spend long enough studying Physics for example you soon realise that all roads lead to Rome! If you start asking WHY then you are led inexorably back to the fact that we don't know WHY the universe came about and WHY it is the way it is. Ultimately if we don't know the answer to those questions then we aren't really dealing in fact, we are dealing in observations. Until we know why everything is the way it is all we can do is say that we have observed these things and we THING they are fact, but we can't be completely sure. There is will always be doubt until we understand where all this came from. This is where ( generic ) religion comes in to play. Because religion has always explained the things that science can not. And why not? As long as science has no answer then it's all up for grabs!
    You were wrong to assume that I believe in ghosts and religion and souls. I don't believe in anything really. I just balance what we think we know and guess about the rest! But truth is we will probably never know. Importantly, though, is that science and religion are not at odds with each other. Some religions may well be, like the quran, but generic religion is in fact just doing what science can't do ~ explaining the unexplainable. My guess is that it will always remain that way.

    Oh and getting back to the point you were wrong to suggest that having a soul is in some way related to believing in religion. I was considering a soul, not religion. It is just interest for me to wonder about the fact that things that were never alive can never die. I sort of agree with you and I sort of don't. Surely if memories of you can live on in others, so can love and hate? But perhaps you are right that our "soul" fades as the people we knew also die. I don't know. I had noticed this in graveyards! People spend on headstones, they take flowers, but if you watch, after twenty years or so the flowers stop coming, the headstones fall. Is that when we truly die? When no one comes to our grave anymore? I dunno.
     
  6. enkoda

    Wise Guy

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    I haven't made any assumptions about what you think. I asked whether you believe in ghosts as it's a good indicator of how people apply double standards to their beliefs: an example would be "I don't believe unicorns exist because there's no proof they exist, but I believe a soul exists despite there being no proof it exists". Do you see the problem?

    "Religion has always explained the things that science can not" - I don't even know where to begin with that...
    "Coz God did it" explains nothing.
    If you can give me an example of one thing religion has explained (not asserted from a supernatural entity) that would be a good starter.
     
  7. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,914

    I believe the physical bodies of all organisms (from smallest bacteria to largest mammals) should be the "condensation" of souls or pure energy into matter.

    Vacuum has the highest density of energy, while the most dense substances on Earth like diamonds and metals have the lowest density of energy.
     
  8. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    I'll give way to the self-aware point slightly as I think I mis-used a word again. I think I'm more talking about the ability to think beyond our immediate group. I'm not aware of any other creature that has an interest in something that doesn't directly affect them. There is even a section of Christianity that says that ability was a God creation for the purpose to take care of the planet. I think thats a minority view.

    I would say I'm asserting the general view that other creatures don't have an inner voice, so you're asking me to prove a negative that can't be done. If you can prove a positive by saying other creatures do have an inner voice then I'd be interested to look at those details as I've never heard that before.

    Those meerkats on the tv are on their way to big money! :D

    That's been my point at the start. If science can at the moment accurately study and understand 80% of the world it doesn't mean the other 20% doesn't exist. It just means the 20% is questionable at best, until it is discovered.

    I agree what you've wrote here. Organised religion as moved away from the pure form of looking to God for the answers. Many religions are 'telling' people what they want to hear, distorting the message from most likely a distorted book. The bible itself as been re-written many times. The meanings have changed to be totally different. So I think organised religion is probably the enemy of God.
     
  9. hornetstinger

    Soldato

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    Posts: 6,058

    Without religion you would not have the concept of god, or gods. So idea of "pure form" is impossible. Your for the idea of your god from a religion, or other religions.

    Also it's not wise to use god of the gaps arguement. we know hydrogen is a element, but we don't know everything so everything outside our knowledge is God did it. This is not logical thinking.
     
  10. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    Location: Leeds

    No.
     
  11. Pocah

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    I think you give science to much credibility. Science is all about observation but every time it answers a question it creates more questions and it all ultimately leads to the same place - why is the universe the way it is? To which science can not offer any explanation. It can say what the universe is but it can't say why. Newton explained how bodies interact through gravity but what he did was to turn observation in to a formula. He never said why things are the way they are, he just said they are that way. Einstein went further and explained that mass distorts space-time which will affect the motion of a distant body.. in that way he offered a deeper understanding of how gravity functions but he never offered any theory as to why it functions in that way. He also believed in God. My point here is that as long as we don't understand why the world is the way it is then there is room for religion. Science will explain a lot but fundamentally it really doesn't give us much insight in to how all this came about, and of course this is where religion steps in. Religion doesn't need to prove anything, it just offers explanations of really fundamental stuff that science can't yet explain. Maybe one day science will, but I wouldn't hold your breath. My point here is they are not mutually exclusive because one deals in what the universe is observed to be and the other deals with why it is so. Sure, some religions shoot themselves in the foot, but I am sure as one shoots itself another will pop up!

    I think whether you believe in science or religion or both or neither there are some pretty big problems. OK our universe started with the Big Bang or God said Let There be Light. But what came before that? Maybe there is a bigger universe ours was created in. Maybe there was another God who created our God? But then where did they come from? I mean these are questions that just can not be answered yet. There is no proof one way or another on what lies beyond our universe. For all we know it could well have been a super advanced aliens that we would identify as Gods. That would keep both science and religion happy! But then of course you would have to ask, who made them?

    Personally I think we would do well to keep an open mind.
     
  12. Bazzards

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 2, 2008

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    Location: Near London

    I keep an open mind, however as no one has provided proof for the supernatural, I don’t believe in gods.

    Also as mentioned just because we don’t understand something does not mean god did it. I’m quite content with the fact that we do not know everything. And can sleep easy with that knowledge.
     
  13. hornetstinger

    Soldato

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    The problem is that theists are only interested in god being the answer "why" and if not happy then god goalposts will be moved again, or if it disputes the Bible, then deny it.
     
  14. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

    Posts: 1,492

    Location: Hants, UK

    I've highlighted the crucial point you're missing or ignoring.

    Please cite an example of something that science hasn't explained that religion does, and which can be verified. If it can't be verified then religion hasn't explained anything, it's just making speculative claims.
    Can religion explain quantum theory, or gravitational waves, or dark matter, or black holes, etc? Nope.

    Religion doesn't have to prove anything because it cannot prove anything - everything centres around faith.

    As for alien gods...hmmm. That would only keep the religious brigade happy if the aliens turned out to be humanoid so it fits the biblical narrative of man being made in God's image.

    Edit:
    I forgot to add this:

    I'm pretty certain that Christianity 'knew' that the earth was the centre of the universe and, similarly, there are many followers that 'know' the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.
    The Church steadfastly refused to accept these positions were wrong until centuries later - the suggestion that religion can explain why the Earth orbits the Sun is ridiculous when religion itself denied such a thing was ever true.
    Only by being proven wrong by science has the Church changed its position - although I'm making a mahoosive presumption here in that you accept the Earth isn't the centre of the universe and it is around 4.5 billion years old?

    The Abrahamic religions are pretty specific in that God is eternal and has always existed, so any notion of a god creator is rejected outright - they know they are right and that's that.

    And if you think "let there be light" is credible enough to sit alongside the Big Bang theory, then I really don't know what else to say....
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
  15. Pocah

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    I have actually answered that question several times. You seem to think that science is fact but it's not. It is an observation of the way the universe works but it does not explain where it came from or why it works the way it does. Religion however explains where it comes from and how it works, albeit you don't like that explanation. But my point here, that I keep repeating, is that they are not mutually exclusive. I think you don't want to see that simply because you don't like any of the current religions. The truth is that science is a faith too, because it hasn't actually proved itself yet. It can't prove everything until we understand exactly where the universe came from and why it is the way it is. Only then can you say that all these observations and predictions science makes are absolutely 100% true.
    But anyway, you have your opinions and I will leave you with them. I am not going to argue this point any more.
     
  16. hornetstinger

    Soldato

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    Science isn't true because we don't know everything.

    How dismissive of logical thinking, peer review you can ?

    Of course your religion is 100% true already on your mind, even though we can show its wrong
     
  17. enkoda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 3, 2010

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    You haven't answered anything, you keep on about how religion explains where it all came from and why - which is fine if you like answers plucked from nowhere with no basis in reality.
    You haven't even provided an example - show me any religious book that tells us why quantum mechanics works the way it does - you can't because religion offers no credible explanation (in this case it offers none whatsoever - I wonder why...?). It doesn't even have to be quantum mechanics - I'll let you choose. If you can't provide an example then I have no reason to believe you. If all you have to substantiate your position is by repeating "religion explains why everything happens" then I have to assume you are trolling.

    You ignored my point about the Church knowing the Earth is the centre of the universe, despite it being not true - religion said it was true, science said it wasn't true - how are these positions mutually compatible? This is the direct opposite of what you said, yet you still persist with this fallacious idea.

    And that sums it up nicely - you don't understand what truth is, you don't understand what science is and you don't understand what faith is (in either a religious/non-religious context).
    Think about the scientific research that went into making this debate possible (electricity, computers, internet, etc, etc, etc), then try explaining to me how science hasn't proved itself.
     
  18. Pocah

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    I am not going to go on repeating myself. I have answered your question, I can't help it if you don't understand the answer. This is definitely my last post no matter how you bend my ear!

    I ignored your point because you keep giving examples from individual religions as some sort of proof that all religions are rubbish, but as a good scientist would know, that's not proof.

    I am a scientist. I have spent my entire life working in the field of science. I am well versed on what scientific truth is. I also happen to have studied, amongst other things, Quantum Mechanics! And I can categorically assure you, it can not explain where the Universe came from. Nor can the super duper version ~ Quantum Electrodynamics. Even String Theory can not tell you where the Multiverse came from. But thing is, you see, it's only when you spend a lifetime studying science that you realise it does have serious limitations. There are tons of gaps in our scientific knowledge that religion can nestle in to. In fact I very much doubt that science will ever answer the fundamental questions, you know, the sort that religion loves to answer. So while you don't like religion I doubt very much that you will be able to disprove the existence of a God any more than the religious types can prove one. Come on, I mean, Einstein was deeply religious. Explain to me how that is possible if science and religion are mutually exclusive? Are you saying Einstein didn't understand science? Deal with it! And goodbye! Arrivederci! Bai – bai! Have a nice day! I' out of here.. lol.
     
  19. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,720

    There can be a God or divine entity without a religion, at least at first. Religions are more religious disciples of a God('s).

    On your last line, if people over thousands of years of writing on walls, creating structures in different parts of the world, writing and building pyramids and writing stone slabs are all saying there is a divine entity and you choose to disregard all that because so far science hasn't discovered how it works then by your line of thought that would be illogical too. The logical way of thinking is leaving the question open ended.
     
  20. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 6,058

    Lots of cultures have idea of monsters do you hold these valid, many over thousands of years had them.

    They are stories mythical beings that is all. So are all god gods and goddesses
    Funny how you haven't included divine entities..because it's against your own