Dog Attack - Faith in Humanity + 1, Faith in the Police -1
- Thread starter Demon
- Start date
We disagree on a lot, but you are spot on here. I would be putting in a complaint to the officers higher ups and asking for a call back from an inspector who has reviewed the situation. This isn’t two dogs walking past each other, this is one jumping out of the window to attack and a complete and utter failing by the owner.
The responding PC’s probably don’t know the law well enough and are just sacking it off.
Also as already recommended, I’d go down the civil claim route as well.
That's a load of crap. If that dog goes out and does this to someone else and they're less 'fortunate' than you guys were, the PC(s) who have sacked this investigation off will be hung out to dry, and rightly so. It sounds like it was a half-assed investigation, probably because dog-bite incidents incur a lot of paperwork and the rigmarole of normally getting a court warrant, but that's besides the point. I was under the impression a local dog warden couldn't themselves decide whether a dog is dangerous, or a banned breed, it has to be assessed by specialist officer who's trained to do so.
Either way, it sounds like you've come away from it confused and feeling fobbed off, having not been given the proper aftercare. I'd definitely lodge a complaint with the force. Give 101 a ring and quote the CAD number if you have it. An inspector has to give you a ring back to progress the matter. Good luck and don't let them give you the run aroumd!
Soldato
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I've obviously missed something here
My dog bites someone = who gets into trouble?
Someone elses dog bites me = who gets into trouble?
My dog bites someone, and in return their dog bites me = who gets into trouble?
Someone elses dog bites me, and in return my dog bites them = who gets into trouble?
My dog bites another animal which isn't another dog = outcome?
My dog bites another dog = outcome?
My dog bites another dog, and in return that dog bites mine = outcome?
If I've understood correctly, "an eye for an eye" seems to cancel out an illegal act......but only for dogs? I mean I guess it's the same with people right? If someone hits me they get into trouble, yet if I hit them back it's even stevens.
We all know what's written in law isn't what happens in reality, but my questions are asking based on written law....not whatever mood the police are in.
My dog bites someone = who gets into trouble?
Someone elses dog bites me = who gets into trouble?
My dog bites someone, and in return their dog bites me = who gets into trouble?
Someone elses dog bites me, and in return my dog bites them = who gets into trouble?
My dog bites another animal which isn't another dog = outcome?
My dog bites another dog = outcome?
My dog bites another dog, and in return that dog bites mine = outcome?
If I've understood correctly, "an eye for an eye" seems to cancel out an illegal act......but only for dogs? I mean I guess it's the same with people right? If someone hits me they get into trouble, yet if I hit them back it's even stevens.
We all know what's written in law isn't what happens in reality, but my questions are asking based on written law....not whatever mood the police are in.
I honestly wish my job was that easy sometimes, having been run ragged after a week of dealing with death, robberies and chasing my tail locking up drug dealers only for them to be out the next day. Don't believe all the crap you're being fed by the MSM.
Caporegime
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Lolwut?
So if a child was walking by instead and the dog mauled the child to death it wouldn't be a dangerous or out of control dog?
I've literally handed police CCTV evidence of several crimes and told them where the guy was and they never searched the house or made the guy who answered the door snitch on him by pressuring him in anyway.
They then listed the crimes as lower to pad the stats and took me several calls and a visit to the station before they actually made a crime reference reporting the actual crime.
Next time I'll have to just arrest the guy myself handcuff him and drive him to the station, ask for the key and show him into the cell for all the good they did.
Soldato
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- 25 Nov 2005
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- 12,451
The irony is, if you bit their dog you'd be charged with animal cruelty
Update:
So after an hours phone call with the officer my faith in the Police took another step down (not sure how much further it can go)
The good news is that the reality is not that they are taking no action it's that they've not done anything at all (YET)
1. They really have been dishonest and misled very very badly to infer it's all over and the result is no offence has been committed and accepting paying of vet fees is the best outcome, without any mention once that this would fall under the DDA as a criminal offence and that is one possible outcome.
2. On not accepting that and asking why isn't it being considered under the DDA as a criminal offence, instead of any cogent argument as to why they start down the insidious route of saying that if they do they'll have to consider all criminal offences in this case and refer to the incident and crime references being taken against our dog for injuring the other dog (biting at it's ears to try to get it to let go) and one of the witnesses trying to help, I tore a strip off him for 5 minutes for doing this with my wife the other day and laid it on thick, it's a truly dispicable act IMO..
He kept trying to go down the route of "What outcome would you feel you'd be happy with" as a leading question to again see if they can find a solution that does not involve any paperwork.. I informed him as to my Wife's wishes, she doesn't necessarily want the dog destroyed, she simply does not want it just around the corner from her so she is not living in fear every time she walks by, as I keep saying, one minor tiny slip up and that dog will attack another dog (or person, I'm getting comfortable with the notion it lunged at my wife probably trying to get through her to our dog) or possibly person (who knows).
Obviously he said there is no way they can 'order' them to give up the dog and asked what else might we consider.. I just said enough is enough, why is it up to me to decide? We've indicated that we feel it's serious enough that we won't accept no action, I said surely it's up to a magistrate etc to decide on the outcome, so why isn't this the case here.. I know precisely what they want to do, it's easier for them to not take it further, and so they just want to push you to do that.
I understand they know some people may not turn up in court as a witness after having second thoughts or not wanting to face their 'attacker' etc and that yes, it can be a bit of an ordeal, however, instead of playing this misleading game of sweeping it under the carpet, why didn't they lead with stating this would need to be considered under the DDA and that is the primary drive, however they want to go over all options just in case we'd prefer to accept not taking action etc? I'd feel there where on our side and taking it seriously, which lets face it is very much part of the healing process..
I was correct in people's experiences that the 'expert' who made the decision is a standard dog handler and so it's absolutely no surprise that someone used to having a very tightly controlled and well trained GSD sees no issues with any dog..
So on the subject of dangerous dogs etc, we've had the guy that was right in the middle of getting this dog to relinquish it's grip pop around to check on things and he painted a similar picture of the severity of the attack as he said despite owning bull terriers in the past he's never seen this kind of behaviour and was quite vocal he felt the way it attacked and how it needed such a concerted effort was shocking to him, he even echo'd my feelings that this was no little spat in the park or anything and was quite sinister. He also never realised the dog lived almost opposite his house which made him quite concerned.
So after an hours phone call with the officer my faith in the Police took another step down (not sure how much further it can go)
The good news is that the reality is not that they are taking no action it's that they've not done anything at all (YET)
1. They really have been dishonest and misled very very badly to infer it's all over and the result is no offence has been committed and accepting paying of vet fees is the best outcome, without any mention once that this would fall under the DDA as a criminal offence and that is one possible outcome.
2. On not accepting that and asking why isn't it being considered under the DDA as a criminal offence, instead of any cogent argument as to why they start down the insidious route of saying that if they do they'll have to consider all criminal offences in this case and refer to the incident and crime references being taken against our dog for injuring the other dog (biting at it's ears to try to get it to let go) and one of the witnesses trying to help, I tore a strip off him for 5 minutes for doing this with my wife the other day and laid it on thick, it's a truly dispicable act IMO..
He kept trying to go down the route of "What outcome would you feel you'd be happy with" as a leading question to again see if they can find a solution that does not involve any paperwork.. I informed him as to my Wife's wishes, she doesn't necessarily want the dog destroyed, she simply does not want it just around the corner from her so she is not living in fear every time she walks by, as I keep saying, one minor tiny slip up and that dog will attack another dog (or person, I'm getting comfortable with the notion it lunged at my wife probably trying to get through her to our dog) or possibly person (who knows).
Obviously he said there is no way they can 'order' them to give up the dog and asked what else might we consider.. I just said enough is enough, why is it up to me to decide? We've indicated that we feel it's serious enough that we won't accept no action, I said surely it's up to a magistrate etc to decide on the outcome, so why isn't this the case here.. I know precisely what they want to do, it's easier for them to not take it further, and so they just want to push you to do that.
I understand they know some people may not turn up in court as a witness after having second thoughts or not wanting to face their 'attacker' etc and that yes, it can be a bit of an ordeal, however, instead of playing this misleading game of sweeping it under the carpet, why didn't they lead with stating this would need to be considered under the DDA and that is the primary drive, however they want to go over all options just in case we'd prefer to accept not taking action etc? I'd feel there where on our side and taking it seriously, which lets face it is very much part of the healing process..
I was correct in people's experiences that the 'expert' who made the decision is a standard dog handler and so it's absolutely no surprise that someone used to having a very tightly controlled and well trained GSD sees no issues with any dog..
So on the subject of dangerous dogs etc, we've had the guy that was right in the middle of getting this dog to relinquish it's grip pop around to check on things and he painted a similar picture of the severity of the attack as he said despite owning bull terriers in the past he's never seen this kind of behaviour and was quite vocal he felt the way it attacked and how it needed such a concerted effort was shocking to him, he even echo'd my feelings that this was no little spat in the park or anything and was quite sinister. He also never realised the dog lived almost opposite his house which made him quite concerned.
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Soldato
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Well...
My dog bites someone = who gets into trouble? - You do. Criminal offense.
Someone elses dog bites me = who gets into trouble? - The someone else. Criminal offense.
My dog bites someone, and in return their dog bites me = who gets into trouble? - Depends which dogs were off lead, if any, and how the humans each came to be close enough that the dog could bite, as well as what each human may have been doing to upset the dog enough that it would bite. Might just be your own stupid fault. Theoretically a criminal offense, but will need to be tried in court (or just argued by your lawyers).
Someone elses dog bites me, and in return my dog bites them = who gets into trouble? - As above.
My dog bites another animal which isn't another dog = outcome? - If it's livestock or a service animal, that's a criminal offense. Otherwise likely civil, depending on surrounding circumstances.
My dog bites another dog = outcome? - Civil dispute, possibly compounded if one or both dogs were off lead or otherwise out of control.
My dog bites another dog, and in return that dog bites mine = outcome? - Likely other owner's fault, but again depends on circumstances. Likely civil dispute.
However, I am not a lawyer or anything, and there are lawyers who specialise in this stuff.
The above is very roughly what the law as writ says, but even then it specifies that it's greatly dependent on circumstances. A happy bouncy dog that's still out of control is more likely regarded to be at fault than the one leashed and being kept away from others, even if the latter is the one that bites.
1 - Good. I hope you tore several strips off him.
2 - Try and get in touch with the Dog Legislation Officer from another nearby Police force. Every force should have one, or access to one.
3 - The Police must investigate. They don't have to undertake any actual prosecution, though... but other local authorities can also instigate proceedings, and you can still do so too.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ment_data/file/69263/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf
They can't... but the court can.
I guess they're trying to remain impartial. How would you feel if, through a very innocent mistake, your darling dog had gotten out and, in a blind panic, had hurt someone?
Really, I think you'll only get a satisfactory outcome if you take it to court yourself.
Get some legal advice first, ideally free, and see if you have a sufficiently strong case. If you do, go hammer the irresponsible human, but do try and get his dog rehomed instead of put down.
Soldato
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Yes Psycho because that is the exact same scenario.
Yes Psycho because that is the exact same scenario.
Same risk.
Was this the guy your dog bit? In which case, if he's on your side then I be inclined to keep pushing with the police, potentially look at making a formal complaint and/or engaging with a solicitor over this.
Associate
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Yes. But there are electric scooters on the roads and people driving 35mph and some even smoke and grow weed. Sorry no time for the cops to deal with this.
Do you keep speaking with the same officer? Get it escalated up, you are obviously getting nowhere.
Asking you what outcome you would be happy with is a fair question, but your reply of, she doesn't want the dog destroyed, but does want this blah blah blah, is wishy washy and does not help.
You want an investigation into the incident and appropriate action taken - they are the experts in law, not you. I'd also be speaking to a solicitor too and be bringing a claim against the dog owner (oh and a bunch of flowers/chocs for the kind neighbour
)
It was, and he was suitably outraged about that and said he'd phone them up to put them straight, he's already offered to be a witness as well!
I'm just following a lead because according to my neighbour (quite a vigilant guy) it was being discussed on a local facebook group and someone piped up they had a video from their doorbell, so I'm just seeing if there is anything to that and see if they can kindly send/save a copy.
If this was just a snap or two between the dogs, I'd be fine, well I'd accept vet fees and a grovelling apology over any action, but every single person who's witnessed it so far (some dog owners) all echo the same feeling they all say it was horrific, not because of the outcome (so far amazingly relatively minor), but the method of attack, the latching, the dragging and the knowledge that 4 blokes took over 10 minutes to figure out how to get it to release it's grip. The reason it dragged on was probably because they had pinned it down, so it clamped on harder, however to just have left the dog to carry on they where in no doubt it would have ended much worse, and more worryingly the dog was quite docile after it calmed down and did not attack anyone there, that might support the 'its a good dog really' argument, but the scary part as one put it, it's the very definition of Jekyll and Hyde.
The thing in all this is really I and my Wife are not out for retribution against dog or owner and I very much like dogs and animals in general, I fully appreciate that there could be zero outcome to this, but I think we are very much set on following the process to get it properly considered, you know, take our emotion out of it, get the Magistrate/Experts etc to deal with this as it should be, and whatever the outcome is, it is.. even if the CPS somehow decided it wasn't worth pursuing (we'll I'd kick up as much fuss as I could have course). I've already started researching how to deal with this kind of dog, and looking at Bite Back sprays (quite humane, relatively safe, but seemingly about as good a defence as you can legally own).
Our intention is that now we know all they are doing is trying hard to take the easy option but can't do this if we don't agree, they'll have to follow their process at some point so I'm OK at the moment just pushing for what should be the right process, and see what happens..
Associate
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Soldato
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If your own dog is doing that to you you have really ****** up somewhere.
If you're not happy with police action then by all means make a complaint and have them explain to you why they didn't pursue the investigation.
Moaning about it on some random forums and berating police because you got what you thought was a poor service isn't going to make it better.
Soldato
I got bitten by a mutt a few years ago.
Got £350 compo from the owners to not push it any more with the police or any other agency.
Got £350 compo from the owners to not push it any more with the police or any other agency.
Soldato
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Well now this really does change things.
"She did not pursue her application to change her plea and will next appear in court on July 16 for sentencing. She was granted unconditional bail."
I wonder what would have happened had she bit the dog in return? Assume she'd have been ok and would face no further action.