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Downsizing, ideas and recommendations please

Discussion in 'Home Cinema & Hi-Fi' started by jonnyp1993, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. jonnyp1993

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 28, 2013

    Posts: 1,712

    Location: Leeds

    Hello guys, the annoying one again!

    I'm looking at building a false wall around my TV, to mount speakers in aswell, including lighting etc.

    I'm wanting to go smaller on my speakers which are currently massive. (Wharfdale vanos3 500's fronts, eltax 80 centre, Yamaha sw315 sub)

    What would people recommend for centre and fronts without spending a fortune?
    Also is there such a thing as a small but powerful sub? Iv thought about building 2 subs into the wall itself, but not.sure how that would sound ?

    I'm trying to get away with building out from the wall as much as possible, this is why I'm looking at.small or compact speakers but pack a good punch for the quid :)

    Any recommendations for speakers and sub would be great

    Thanks in advance to you home cinema gurus :D
     
  2. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    Small and good sub equals expensive. Say if your Yamaha sub is changed to sealed, the cabinet will be smaller but need bigger amp to get the same app, and higher quality driver as well.

    Smaller speakers means less frequency range from the speakers so your sub has to play higher up and only better subs play higher up without being boomy. Also smaller speakers also mean lower sensivity compared to bigger speakers so you need more power for the same spl.

    Those valdus speakers were awful sound quality

    Is stick with standmiunts with 6.5 inch driver

    Checkout q acoustics as for small subs checkout bk xls 400 and svs sb2000
     
  3. jonnyp1993

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 28, 2013

    Posts: 1,712

    Location: Leeds

    Thanks for the tips and info, I k now the valdus are not the best, but I got them cheap at the time. I will look at the suggested subs you mentioned, thanks again :)
     
  4. lucid

    Mobster

    Joined: May 29, 2010

    Posts: 4,781

    Location: Cheshire

    What's your budget?

    What physical limits do you have to the dimensions of this false wall - particularly the depth?

    How good are your maths and DIY skills? Can you design a cabinet of the correct dimensions to suit a sub driver, and are you good enough at woodwork to make it with the appropriate bracing in the correct places so that it will be strong and have minimal resonance?
     
  5. jonnyp1993

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 28, 2013

    Posts: 1,712

    Location: Leeds

    Budget for speakers is around £200 - £250, I'm not fussed about buying used.

    Iv had my fair share of DIY in the past, built shops, beds, wardrobes in walls etc, so I'm pretty confident in my ability to build it.

    Depth is 18" at the base, standing around 20" high, with a false wall ontop against the wall sticking out about 8"
     
  6. lucid

    Mobster

    Joined: May 29, 2010

    Posts: 4,781

    Location: Cheshire

    I can't quite visualise your wall design. It sounds like you're describing some kind of brick plinth @ 18" deep x 20" high on which an 8" deep false wall will sit. Is that right?

    In the meantime, here's some basic info on speaker principles that might help you narrow down your choices: Most box-type loudspeakers work best with some space around them, even bookshelf speakers. Enclosing them within a built structure means you'll hear a difference in the sound. With some designs it's more pronounced, and with others less so, but they all change in character to some degree. Speakers that change the least are sealed box designs, but unless we're talking about the sort of micro-cubes made popular by the likes of Bose, then conventional bookshelf/standmount speakers in a sealed box design have been out of fashion for a good 30+ years or so, so this leaves ported designs as your main option.

    Broadly speaking, ported designs have the bass port either at the front or the rear, and since you'll be listening to the sound of the port as well as the main drivers, then clearly you need to limit your choices to front-ported designs. You'll also need something where the manufacturer offers centre speakers as well. As a practical consideration, it'll probably simplify construction and fitting if the speakers have flat sides rather than being tapered or curved or with lumps a la KEF Q1 or similar.

    This brings us to a limit within your wall design; it's the depth. Front ported speakers that match the rest of the requirements for porting and performance and shape do tend to be a bit bigger than the smallest rear-ported bookshelf speakers. The larger facia required to accommodate a bass port generally goes hand in hand with a deeper box too. In short, an 8" wall depth is going to limit your speakers choices.

    The most compact ported speaker I can think of with a range of matching centres that fits your budget and performs well above its price point is the Wharfedale 220. Including the speaker terminals, you're looking at a depth of about 10.5 inches.

    Wharfedale Diamond 220 had an original price of £220 when launched in 2014. The got a lot of praise and won awards at that price. They're currently on offer for around the £100 mark which makes them something of a bargain. Used prices reflect the higher RRP. Ebay shows a lot in private sales for around £70, with the odd pair dipping in below £50. Potentially that would then leave you with up to £200 to spend on a centre speaker. For a movie system, the center speaker should take the lion's share of the front three speaker budget. Most of what you hear during a film comes from the center.

    As for small but high-performing subs, @hornetstinger is right that that combination means something expensive. Many years ago, Bob Carver's Sunfire True Subwoofers broke the big box rule. He found high-quality long-throw drivers to mate with potent amps and created small boxes that did stuff that surprised the big box market at the time. The same sort of principle has been applied widely by other manufacturers now. Back in the early 2000s REL made the Q200 sub. It's a 1 cu ft box with a 10" driver, so on paper it looks the same as a BK Gemini II, but in the flesh it sounds like a much bigger box thanks to the additional power and the quality of the amp and driver. These were £600 new. They're not the prettiest sub, but if you want potent performance from a tiny box then they're really hard to beat. You can pick them up used for under £150.
     
  7. jonnyp1993

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 28, 2013

    Posts: 1,712

    Location: Leeds

    Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it :)

    I have looked at the wharfdale 220s and have decided they are the ones, richer sounds got them on sale.at £100, so that's what I'm going to get. I'm still looking into the suggested subs, but that's for another day!

    The design has changed some since I first posted, which is most likely why you are confused a little!

    This is now what I'm making, so building speakers into walls or subs isnt needed.now, but I do still want 2 small subs and the wharfdale 220s, so this wasnt a complete waste of time.

    [​IMG]

    I do really appreciate your time in replying, it hasn't gone to waste as it will come in handy at some point :)

    P.s, I am going to be doing a build log of this project and how cheap it costs, so keep a look out :)
     
  8. tom_nieto

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 10,481

    Location: Birmingham

    Original KEF Eggs (KHT2005) are pretty cheap second hand if you want a decent sub/sat system. Not to everyone's taste looks wise of course! I haven't used them for home cinema, but for music in the kitchen/dining room they've proved to be excellent. They wall mount easily and their front ported design means you could recess them in a wall slightly.

    EDIT: they'd probably be easy to re-paint if you wanted a particular colour scheme too.
     
  9. jonnyp1993

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 28, 2013

    Posts: 1,712

    Location: Leeds


    Not a fan of the eggs I must say, Iv got my heart set on the 220s now :), looking at a diamond cm10 centre speaker on Ebay atm, reviews seem pretty good and its within budget too
     
  10. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    Also KEF egg sub blows up.

    Kef egg sound is surpassed by many modern speakers ie diamond 9.0 q acoustics.

    As for small sub checkout powersound 4x 18" it's tiny, compared to a HGV.
     
  11. Phil2008

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,877

    I have the BK XLS 200 sub, costed £400 when I bought it over 10yrs ago now and it still sounds as good as when I bought it.. But I tend not to thrash it much, but it does get a workout once in a while, but even then Im still quite careful with it.
     
  12. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    A ported design with same amp and driver as the bknxls 400 will play louder.

    I've had subs with same driver and ported version belts out output in movies where the sub will start struggling with, you'd need duals to reach the same output
     
  13. tom_nieto

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 10,481

    Location: Birmingham

    It starts buzzing due to a capacitor wearing out. Easy fix (I’ve done it). Anyway, not what the OP is after.
     
  14. tom_nieto

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 10,481

    Location: Birmingham

    Not to everyone’s taste I agree! The 220s look decent.
     
  15. Phil2008

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,877

    Yeah a ported sub amplifies the sound, but a non ported sub gives a punchier tighter sound, more suited for music. I have been looking at the xxls400 sub and I wouldnt mind upgrading to it but the xls200 is plenty beefy enough for my 2x100watt speakers and my mid size room.
     
  16. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    That's why I changed from svs pc ultra 13 to svs SB ultra 13.

    However the pc ultra was a better movie sub able to blast the room walls out at higher spl and with more physical impact.

    And as I said you need a bigger amp, a low powered small sealed box sub will run out of stream easily.

    Movies are far more demanding than music
     
  17. Phil2008

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,877

    I agree, but the sound on movies are totally rubbish now, as the vocals are way way quieter then the effects, so you need the volume up stupidly loud to hear what people are saying and then you get blown away with the effect.. I have even stopped listening to movies on my main speakers/sub system as its totally rubbish having your ear drums shattered, not to mean the poor sub and speakers.
     
  18. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    My eardrums would give up before the speakers and sub do.

    Also if find it hard to hear voices get a better center speaker.

    Or boost center a few dB.
    Or use dynamic range compression.
    Or I can use dialogue enhancer on mine which boosts speech frequencies.
     
  19. Phil2008

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,877

    If you have a center speaker, the vocals doesnt always come out of that speaker so its pointless increasing speaker levels.. I have tried everything to fix the sound probs, but nothing fixes it.. With old movies the sound is great as everything is the same level.
     
  20. hornetstinger

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 5,782

    Don't have any problems. What movies are.you having problems with?