End of Private car ownership - thoughts?

Soldato
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There's not really any substance to what everyone is arguing about though really, is there? The article is just fearful speculation by the author, based on a quote from the transport minister where she espouses her vision, ie ditching the "20th-century thinking centred around private vehicle ownership and towards greater flexibility, with personal choice and low carbon shared transport."

They seem to have taken the minster saying "we should ditch the 20th-century thinking centred around private vehicle ownership" as "we should ditch private vehicle ownership". There's nothing there about actually banning private vehicle ownership, or that it's existence is even mutually exclusive with shared transport schemes, yet the rest of the article is just the author acting like that's the case. Christ, the TM even says "...toward greater flexibility, with personal choice." So presumably removing private car ownership as a choice is not part of what she's suggesting

I hoped the "source" might include the full transcript of what the minister had said, or a link to a recording of it. But instead, it's just an even vaguer Express article, with the same partial quote. Then the rest is just a regurgitation of comments from overly dramatic "Express readers", who've taken a minister essentially saying "we should modernise our approach to car ownership" as "BAN PRIVATE CARS!", and reacted accordingly. With, of course, the usual predictable smattering of whining about liberal elites and Communism. I mean:

A further Express reader, using the nickname Haroldsdad, said: “I had to pinch myself when I heard this to make sure it was only a dream.
“A dream of living in some eastern European communist state or North Korea.
“This Government has gone power mad."

Jesus, calm down.
 
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Soldato
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@b0rn2sk8
You’re missing the point.
EV is a pipe dream
The real goal is to price the majority off the road.
Let’s just imagine the government swapped every ICE car now for electric.
It would be a disaster, the infrastructure isn’t in place to charge them and nor will it be in the foreseeable future. Fact.
 
Soldato
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Looking way ahead in time I can see the idea of reducing the number of owned cars with on demand services or short term to your door hire being quite viable. I'm forced to have a company car but I'd happily swap my commute with a cheap taxi service and have a suitable sized car delivered to my workplace for work trips.

The couple over the road from us have two Ford Fiestas. Since the WFH rules came in one now moves once a week and the other once a month. They have no kids and don't go out with any large items... maybe a good candidate for this scenario as well?

On the other hand... now we have a baby ourselves I totally get the desire to 'own' the family car. It has the car seat in ready to go, buggy lives in the boot, the fact it takes us 30 minutes of logistics to get out of the house with baby and all necessary kit doesn't matter.

Likewise my MX5, it is completely unnecessary yet it is my completely unnecessary car. I probably won't get rid of that until it is completely unviable to own or drive it anymore.

So I don't think we need to look in terms of absolutes but more in terms of things changing in the far long term for people that it suits and who choose to go that route.
 
Soldato
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Being able to call a car to my house, in a semi-rural area (up a small track, too) in five minutes? That's not going to happen. I have to book taxis days in advance, unless i'm feeling lucky.
Above all the conveniences of having a vehicle I like sitting there ready and waiting, I'd certainly rather be able to dive in and get to hospital or family/friend in an emergency, even breaking speed limits slightly if I feel like it.

That single (already had a couple) instance would be worth it.

This might be one of those things that might work in cities, though.


Definitely a city and large town idea and this is where it actually makes a lot of sense as a option. Otherwise everyone in the country will just move to commercial vehicles making the experience worse for everyone.


"Just popping to the shop to get some milk do you need anything?". *hops into the combine harvester*
 
Soldato
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@b0rn2sk8
You’re missing the point.
EV is a pipe dream
The real goal is to price the majority off the road.
Let’s just imagine the government swapped every ICE car now for electric.
It would be a disaster, the infrastructure isn’t in place to charge them and nor will it be in the foreseeable future. Fact.

How am I missing the point or is it a pipe dream?

The government isn’t trying to price everyone off the roads, before the car apocalypse BEV prices were set to fall to around the same as ICE cars by the middle of the decade.

Yes, if you took every ICE car off the road today and replaced them with BEV today then yes, the infrastructure will fall over. But that’s not actually REALITY. It will take at least another two decades before there is full penetration through nearly all U.K. fleet.

There are billions being spent on infrastructure, just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Most of it is private investment, it doesn’t actually need much public money. The biggest issue and blocker is getting permits and approvals to put the stuff in the ground.

Other countries have basically already achieved what the U.K. is aiming to to in 8 years.

But don’t worry, there will still be plenty of ICE cars round for you to drive for the next 20 years should you want to. No doubt there will be other forms of alternative fuels too.
 
Soldato
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How am I missing the point or is it a pipe dream?

The government isn’t trying to price everyone off the roads, before the car apocalypse BEV prices were set to fall to around the same as ICE cars by the middle of the decade.

Yes, if you took every ICE car off the road today and replaced them with BEV today then yes, the infrastructure will fall over. But that’s not actually REALITY. It will take at least another two decades before there is full penetration through nearly all U.K. fleet.

There are billions being spent on infrastructure, just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Most of it is private investment, it doesn’t actually need much public money. The biggest issue and blocker is getting permits and approvals to put the stuff in the ground.

Other countries have basically already achieved what the U.K. is aiming to to in 8 years.

But don’t worry, there will still be plenty of ICE cars round for you to drive for the next 20 years should you want to. No doubt there will be other forms of alternative fuels too.

Yeah, that's all very well, but he wrote "fact" though.
 
Soldato
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@b0rn2sk8
You’re missing the point.
EV is a pipe dream
The real goal is to price the majority off the road.
Let’s just imagine the government swapped every ICE car now for electric.
It would be a disaster, the infrastructure isn’t in place to charge them and nor will it be in the foreseeable future. Fact.
EV is a pipe dream
I wouldn't call something that is unattainable for many at the current time "a pipe dream". Those same people who can't afford a new Ford Focus that you were talking about earlier will be well served by cheap (relatively speaking) EV's on the second-hand market. With the way things are evolving I can't see a 2020 MG5 EV being particularly expensive on the used market in 2030. In fact these earlier generation EVs may end up costing peanuts.

The real goal is to price the majority off the road.
Maybe. Then again maybe there will be better options for people than running a 15 year old diesel car to do their weekly big shop in.

Let’s just imagine the government swapped every ICE car now for electric.
Good job that isn't happening...

It would be a disaster, the infrastructure isn’t in place to charge them and nor will it be in the foreseeable future. Fact.
The infrastructure does need to improve but there is an element of chicken and the egg. EVs are now making up a sizable proportion of new car sales. This will create demand, which creates opportunity to fill that demand. Did anyone really expect tens of thousands of charging points to pop up ten years ago to serve a few thousand Nissan Leaf's? The demand is ramping up now and there is a job to do to keep up with it, that's for sure but at the same time there is a massive marketplace there for the taking and the likes of Gridserve have already spotted the potential.
 
Man of Honour
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Great question, where is this assumption coming from? Because every time this topic comes up all you do is say Taxi's already exist :cry:

But the purpose behind me raising this point is to illustrate that the concept of simply being able to summon a car to take you anywhere you need to go is a concept we've had for decades already - it's not new. Therefore it's difficult to see how a change to this formula is going to be so revolutionary as to destroy the model of car ownership.


This forum is the fringe use case. We sell more everyday cars used as white goods than E43s.

I agree but even people who don't care about cars sort of do care about cars. Take a drive down any suburban street and what do you see? Probably not many E43 AMG's I agree but there will be all sorts of done up Range Rovers, Corsas with black wheels, S-Line Audi's, SUV's people don't need, etc etc. Because people *do* care what they drive enough to not simply purchase the most practical option available. It's why the car market is globally worth so much money - all over the planet cars are seen as more than transport - to some they are a source of enjoyment, to others a hobby, to many a status symbol.

I own two cars, an E43 and an Ibiza FR. I'd get rid of the Ibiza FR in a heart beat if I could get a reliable rental service that allows me to summon the vehicle to my door. It would probably delete about 90% of the cars off of my road as well, which in turn, means my beautiful E43 will stop getting god damn hit by useless drivers attempting to parallel park :mad:

Genuine question - why isn't Uber this service for you? You can summon an E Class to your door right now if you wanted to go somewhere. You'll probably cite cost - which is valid, I agree - but I can't see why a driverless car would be so much less money. Yes, a driver costs money, but as a proportion of the operating costs of a brand new vehicle perhaps not as high as you'd imagine.

This is before we've even considered the family aspect - many families have an entire SUV which spends its entire life loaded with more stuff than i can comprehend ever taking anywhere. Are they going to pack and unpack a random shared car every time they want to go down the road shopping?

My prediction:

In 20 years time we won't all be summoning a driverless car. We'll be arguing over which cleaning products are best for whatever the latest EV is we're all driving instead. We might summon a driverless car to take us home from a night out, or to the airport, but a huge proportion of us will still own and enjoy driving a car - it'll just be a different car to the sort we have now.
 
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Soldato
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so car sharing and public transport is way forwards in the covid world we live in? can see virus spreading to new heights.
That's my thoughts. No way I'm sharing my car with random people would take ages to clean the thing until in happy to get in.
 
Soldato
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But the purpose behind me raising this point is to illustrate that the concept of simply being able to summon a car to take you anywhere you need to go is a concept we've had for decades already - it's not new. Therefore it's difficult to see how a change to this formula is going to be so revolutionary as to destroy the model of car ownership.
Right and there is still a use case for taxis. When your ******, when you don't want to worry about parking, when you just want to be dropped off. Yes - we could extend the driverless car ability to full driverless taxi'ing - but that isn't what I am talking about.

The beauty of driverless cars that can be summoned is
1) its practical/near-term ability to be a reality. it restricts the driverless component to the 'last mile' of getting a car to your house on a predictable, well designed piece of road network.
2) You then take control of the wheel and can handle every other unpredictable road circumstance that driverless needs another decade or so to work through.
3) This means you are responsible for the car in your possession, potentially you need to worry about parking (as you may be driving off "grid" for example), your gear in the car, etc.

If you've ever travelled to India/Bangladesh, you can often book taxi's for the day and they just wait around for you with all your gear in the car. That is impossible in the UK due to the human.

Driverless car that can be summoned, strictly in my example for the purposes of getting it to your house (versus going to a car pool parking space or driving to Avis/Europcar/whatever).

I agree but even people who don't care about cars sort of do care about cars. Take a drive down any suburban street and what do you see? Probably not many E43 AMG's I agree but there will be all sorts of bling Range Rovers, Corsas with black wheels, S-Line Audi's, SUV's people don't need, etc etc. Because people *do* care what they drive enough to not simply purchase the most practical option available. It's why the car market is globally worth so much money - all over the planet cars are seen as more than transport - to some they are a source of enjoyment, to others a hobby, to many a status symbol.
Right but you do what lots of others on OCUK do. 'Source: Me'. Take a look at facts and figures and for the minor amount of bling Range Rovers, suped up Corsas, M Sport Bimmers - there are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more 'whatever was going at the time' leases. I look on my street right now and (non-exhaustively) I see 5 Fiestas, 2 Nissan Qashqais, a handful of Tiguans. Only a handful of these have roof boxes, car seats etc. The rest are just expensive lumps of tin taking up valuable parking/street space on poor value for money leases.

I fully agree this isn't for everyone but I am not naïve enough to think the majority of folk are car enthusiastic that the market for it doesn't exist. If the 80% of non-car people move to this model, it means the 20% of 'proper car' people can really have fun.

Genuine question - why isn't Uber this service for you? You can summon an E Class to your door right now if you wanted to go somewhere. You'll probably cite cost - which is valid, I agree - but I can't see why a driverless car would be so much less money. Yes, a driver costs money, but as a proportion of the operating costs of a brand new vehicle perhaps not as high as you'd imagine.
Correct. And if you can't see why removing the most expensive part of a taxi (i.e. the human) is a key factor to reducing the cost, then that's entirely on you.

This is before we've even considered the family aspect - many families have an entire SUV which spends its entire life loaded with more stuff than i can comprehend ever taking anywhere. Are they going to pack and unpack a random shared car every time they want to go down the road shopping?
No, they can decide to buy if the convenience factor for them is worth the premium over a 'summoned' rental car.


My prediction:

In 20 years time we won't all be summoning a driverless car. We'll be arguing over which cleaning products are best for whatever the latest EV is we're all driving instead. We might summon a driverless car to take us home from a night out, or to the airport, but a huge proportion of us will still own and enjoy driving a car - it'll just be a different car to the sort we have now.
I don't think anyone (other than the tripe written in the god awful article linked to in the OP) thinks we will "all be summoning a driverless car". It is hyperbole written to trigger the gammons who are seeing their "right to own" being taken away.
 
Commissario
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That's my thoughts. No way I'm sharing my car with random people would take ages to clean the thing until in happy to get in.

For as long as I can legally do so I will always have my own car and I won't be ferrying strangers around in it, in or out of covid times, governments and their total lack of common sense with stupid ideas, yes make it an option, but for those who don't want to participate and wish to own their own vehicle exclusively for their personal use is their right to do so.

Nothing will ever come off it certainly not anytime soon. :)
 
Soldato
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But the purpose behind me raising this point is to illustrate that the concept of simply being able to summon a car to take you anywhere you need to go is a concept we've had for decades already - it's not new. Therefore it's difficult to see how a change to this formula is going to be so revolutionary as to destroy the model of car ownership.
I don't disagree but for decades we could phone up our local Chinese takeaway and order a 45, 64, 22 oh and some prawn crackers on the side. Then Deliveroo et al came along and now people pay a delivery charge for 6 chicken nuggets or a coffee from Starbucks and there are delivery drivers buzzing around everywhere.

Convenience is a key factor for many. A reliable app based model does have the potential to revolutionise the way an established system works.

My prediction:

In 20 years time we won't all be summoning a driverless car. We'll be arguing over which cleaning products are best for whatever the latest EV is we're all driving instead. We might summon a driverless car to take us home from a night out, or to the airport, but a huge proportion of us will still own and enjoy driving a car - it'll just be a different car to the sort we have now.

I'd also agree with that for the vast majority of people given a 20 year timeframe. Another 20 years down the line however... I'm not so sure.
 
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I don't disagree but for decades we could phone up our local Chinese takeaway and order a 45, 64, 22 oh and some prawn crackers on the side. Then Deliveroo et al came along and now people pay a delivery charge for 6 chicken nuggets or a coffee from Starbucks and there are delivery drivers buzzing around everywhere.

Convenience is a key factor for many. A reliable app based model does have the potential to revolutionise the way an established system works.



I'd also agree with that for the vast majority of people given a 20 year timeframe. Another 20 years down the line however... I'm not so sure.


I suspect that is the likely outcome in the next 20 years. The 20 years after that I am not particular fussed about as I plan to be retired and living outside the UK and enjoying a warmer climate and summoning driver less taxi's or whatever the equivalent is then to ferry me around, but whilst I can still enjoy my own ICE cars I shall and once I am forced to move to EV will be a time when there is a lot more options and then I will get one. :)
 
Soldato
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I suspect that is the likely outcome in the next 20 years. The 20 years after that I am not particular fussed about as I plan to be retired and living outside the UK and enjoying a warmer climate and summoning driver less taxi's or whatever the equivalent is then to ferry me around, but whilst I can still enjoy my own ICE cars I shall and once I am forced to move to EV will be a time when there is a lot more options and then I will get one. :)
It's a bit like horse ownership now compared to decades ago. You can still do it, but it'll be comparatively a lot more expensive. No one is taking away the option to privately own.
 
Soldato
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It's a bit like horse ownership now compared to decades ago. You can still do it, but it'll be comparatively a lot more expensive. No one is taking away the option to privately own.

Indeed. This whole article appears to be an overreaction to the interpretation of what one minster has said. I see my car as a hobby as much as I do transport, so I prefer to own it, but there's little reason that giving people more access to shared alternatives should make that impossible.
 
Soldato
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The entire article is garbage tbh.

For some odd reason the pictures portraying car ownership show the absolute pits of it (queueing for petrol) versus a glamorised shot of London busses at Oxford Circus :cry:
 
Soldato
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@lordrobs
There never will be EVs for the masses.
It’s a distraction from what is really happening.
The infrastructure won’t be in place certainly within my life time.
I’m pretty sure a better solution than EV will come along, but the goal is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road.
It’s even admitted by the government, they want to end private car ownership.
Feel like I’m talking to a wall most of the time, you lot just imagine what suits your own personal situation.
As for cheap EVs it won’t matter because the majority haven’t and won’t ever have a means to charge them.
 
Soldato
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Likewise most people already have off street parking suitable for home charging, that is a fact.
Can I see some sources for this 'fact', please?

TBH, private ownership means individual responsibility for all the **** ups and failures to pay all the various dues, so I think the government will make more money from that than anyone could through any kind of shared ownership scheme!
 
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