Energy Suppliers

Caporegime
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Llaneirwg
This could well continue too. If gas prices continue to stay above the variable cap tax payers will be paying for thier electricity and everyone else's too.


These tax bills keep on coming. Covid, brexit, NHS, councils shortfalls.
Future is looking expensive
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Mar 2003
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14,228
Just got my final bill from green. Hopefully that means the final bill from shell will not be too far behind. £238 in credit to cover a few days with shell.
 
Soldato
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Is the £1.7bn loan already steeping outside the rules ofgen had set up ?
I thought (like a car insurance pooled fund for hit&run) the other companies had to jointly fund any company that was going down, like Bulb,
and had read there was already a notional charge of £1K for every customer from the firms that had already collapsed
 
Soldato
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18 Oct 2002
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Manchester
Is the £1.7bn loan already steeping outside the rules ofgen had set up ?
I thought (like a car insurance pooled fund for hit&run) the other companies had to jointly fund any company that was going down, like Bulb,
and had read there was already a notional charge of £1K for every customer from the firms that had already collapsed

IANAL but is this the legal framework that the £1.7bn loan has been approved under? Memorandum of Understanding: Energy Supply Company Administration | Ofgem
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Jul 2010
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25,727
If the government had allowed suppliers to sell energy at a reasonable cost none of this would have happened..... now the Taxpayer will pay for all the losses until the market returns to normal.
Utterly crazy!
The cap is to the benefit of consumers although I concede it’s really screwing companies over. Would you rather millions choosing ‘heat or eat’ as energy bills reach £200+ for even the most modest home when pensioners living alone are bringing in less than £100 a week, 2/3rds of that going on fuel costs?
 
Soldato
Joined
27 Feb 2015
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Its a choice between protecting consumers or the companies, I think the government made the right one, but we can see with Bulb if the conditions are right they will help out to try and keep the companies alive.
 
Caporegime
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Llaneirwg
It's same old. May as well have a social tariff and a normal tariff with a surcharge to pay for the social tariff.

That's what is happening now.

As not everyone can pay, the government (tax payers) are. So effectively this is what is happening.

1000 pounds per customer.

Sounds like the cap covers about half the bill for the average person
 
Soldato
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18 Oct 2002
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West Midlands
People go on about the pricing cap being the problem, but the fact is no one saw this coming, here's the gas pricing per Therm from Oct 2009 until October 2021, the previous peak in March 2013 was £86.57, since then the highest it has been is £73.72 until recently and we are now at £162+. If you look at the lows in 2020 it was down at £11.59 almost 15x less!

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If the energy companies have there own way, approaching this winter people would be paying 3x for their gas prices when they use the most and can least afford it, I'd rather a company go bust than a huge proportion of people be unable to heat their homes.
 
Associate
Joined
23 Aug 2020
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163
The cap is to the benefit of consumers although I concede it’s really screwing companies over. Would you rather millions choosing ‘heat or eat’ as energy bills reach £200+ for even the most modest home when pensioners living alone are bringing in less than £100 a week, 2/3rds of that going on fuel costs?
I don't understand the point your trying to make. Help those that need to be helped that's the way it normally works. What next capping food prices and nationalising supermarkets?
 
Associate
Joined
23 Aug 2020
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163
If the energy companies have there own way, approaching this winter people would be paying 3x for their gas prices when they use the most and can least afford it
Energy companies aren't setting prices. The price is set by supply and demand. Currently the Taxpayer has funded Bulb to the tune of £1.7 billion. How many more billions will it cost us? Help those that can't afford it and let others who can pay.

The Taxpayer LOST £33 Billion on RBS.
 
Caporegime
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17 Jul 2010
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25,727
I don't understand the point your trying to make. Help those that need to be helped that's the way it normally works. What next capping food prices and nationalising supermarkets?
The only direct help anyone gets is https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment the winter fuel payment. A one off payment of between £100 & £300 made in November or early December. Given that if, as you’ve suggested, the fuel companies be allowed to charge whatever they wish to continue to make a profit in some situations that payment, which could be as little as £100 remember, wouldn’t even cover 2-3 weeks of gas and electric.
 
Soldato
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Energy companies aren't setting prices. The price is set by supply and demand. Currently the Taxpayer has funded Bulb to the tune of £1.7 billion. How many more billions will it cost us? Help those that can't afford it and let others who can pay.

The Taxpayer LOST £33 Billion on RBS.

I get your point, perhaps the winter fuel payment could be dynamic based on the cost of energy, so e.g. this year instead of been £100 and something it should be £500 with the uncapped prices.

However things are not always that simple, there will be people who dont qualify for these payments (perhaps the bar set too low) who would be vulnerable with the out of control energy rises.

Ofgem have already said they going to change how they set the cap in future so situations like this become less likely, its going to lead to higher caps but would still be better than no caps.

Also letting some companies collapse isnt an industrial crisis, consumers are protected, they get moved to another company with their credit intact and dont get their supply cut off, that is the most important thing here. If the industry was in danger e.g. all the big companies were at risk, there would be no doubt the government would handle it differently.

If the cap wasnt in place I expect bulb etc. would still be in trouble, they would have had to raise their prices higher than the big companies, due to getting less favourable pricing on their short term deals, consumers would have migrated en masse as ofgem encourages people to keep swapping companies, and some would have financial problems, at best firing staff as they shrink, or perhaps still going into liquidation, albeit at a later date. Whilst at the same time the government would have been slaughtered for allowing prices to go out of control. I think the few who collapsed within a few weeks would have still collapsed, as there is a lag between paying more wholesale and rising for customers (especially those on old fixed rate deals, cap unaffects those remember). I expect on the small suppliers the vast majority were on fixed rate deals which would need to expire, as those are the customers who are prepared to jump to get better deals.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a new law where fixed rate deals can only be given if the supplier also has it fixed with their own supplier.

Ultimately it comes down to that these companies "gambled" on their wholesale costs staying low and lost.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
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21,901
Ultimately it comes down to that these companies "gambled" on their wholesale costs staying low and lost.

well - easy to call it after the fact
market was already being reviewed following breeze collapse , and as fatboy mentioned not dissimilar to rbs/fanni-mai scenario, where reformed banks now need more collateral,
no one had the precognition to anticipate the energy events that would unravel.
( Even this new dart space mission yesterday, maybe too late - can we avoid an extinction event from a colliding asteroid. )
[
ie. 3 February 2020 | Reed Smith Client Alerts Tighter rules for energy suppliers as Ofgem aims
A low bar to entry into the energy supply market has caused the number of energy suppliers to proliferate in recent years. While the influx of new suppliers has increased competition and exerted downward pressure on energy prices, there has been an attendant rise in energy supplier insolvency
....
]


Best minds had considered the risks, but thought small companies would establish adequate hedging without vertical intergration V
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../final-report-energy-market-investigation.pdf

would be interesting to know how other countries have dealt with energy monopilies.
 
Soldato
Joined
27 Feb 2015
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12,621
So we'll end up where we started. A small group of huge energy companies with no incentives to lower prices or do anything.

We dont know yet what the future holds, I was just replying to the way you suggested for things to happen.

I dont have access to the customer databases, it is speculation on my part that the smaller companies had a higher proportion of customers on aggressively priced fixed rate plans, logically those customers who cant be bothered to keep hopping to get the best deal are probably on one of the big providers on VRT. So whilst the cap wasnt helping the smaller companies they would have had a big chunk of customers on fixed rate which were below the price cap anyway. As soon as it came out there was no bail out for them, they quickly went into liquidation. You said yourself you didnt want taxpayers money going directly to these companies.

Bulb did hold on longer though which suggests things were not quite the same with them, and with this company the government chose to give them a short term bailout.

Moving forward I think we can still have competition, but it wont be as aggressive, and there is a chance fixed rate deals will only be allowed if its secured on long term energy supply at a cost to allow it. On social tariffs or increased winter fuel payments I have no issue with either, but when it comes to the government they will always consider the public response in any decision they make, maintaining the current cap until April was probably the most popular decision they could make. Also provided immediate relief vs having people having to apply for social tariff's.

When markets have too many competitors, some fall away, it happens whether its via liquidation or buy outs (broadband market an example), I dont think we have heard the end of this, April will be interesting and we may see regulation changes.
 
Soldato
Joined
7 Dec 2012
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17,507
Location
Gloucestershire
If the cap wasnt in place I expect bulb etc. would still be in trouble, they would have had to raise their prices higher than the big companies, due to getting less favourable pricing on their short term deals, consumers would have migrated en masse as ofgem encourages people to keep swapping companies
The sensible companies hedged for their expected consumption, not for the additional consumption of hundreds of thousands of fleeing new customers. They'd have put their new customer prices up* to a level similar to Bulb, because they too would be buying on the spot market.

*just like they have now: hence no good deals for moving
 
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