Enoch Powell Documentary. My opinion has been changed.

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i have to admitt my opinion of mr powell was created from that of general here say and to my regret ive always just ran with the crowd and thought of him as racist.

I was very very wrong. offensive in places, that he was. Wrong to target black v white, indeed with hindsight but with the same hindsight many of the points he made generally about immigration seem to be vindicated. Im a liberal generally but even i couldnt help but marvell at his brilliance and wince at his mistakes. His face and eyes say more than any other politician i have seen in modern day.

watch and judge for yourself.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b009g794.shtml?src=ip_potpw


some of the best bits to quote:

go to these times.
39:50
40:30 - one of the most intelligent defences i have heard.
 
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Which ones, specifically?
  • the ammounts of immigrants comming in
  • the pressure on services
  • possitive discrimination (this led to 51% of all jobs created in the last ten years going to immigrants)
  • increasing crime (not the soul problem of immigrants, but mass immigration does not help)
  • creating segregated communitys within communities as a result of "multiculturalism" i.e. not forcing people to integrate, instead allowing them to bring their full cultural identity with them which leads to seperate paralel communities within the same towns and cities
 
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Although I disagree with a lot of what Powell said and stood for, I cannot help but admire him. He was more sincere than any other politician I think I've ever come into contact with.

EDIT: This isn't just regarding his Rivers of Blood speech.
 
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  • the ammounts of immigrants comming in
  • the pressure on services


  • Two no-brainers there. Top marks to Mr Powell for stating the obvious.

    [*]possitive discrimination (this led to 51% of all jobs created in the last ten years going to immigrants)

    Is it? Can you prove that 51% of all jobs created in the last 10 years went to immigrants purely as a result of positive discrimination?

    Last time I checked, they went to immigrants because (a) most of them were unskilled jobs, (b) most of them were also extremely low paid jobs, (c) most of them were jobs that a lot of people didn't want to do, and (d) most of them were jobs for which a great many people were were overqualified.

    That's got nothing to do with positive discrimination, and everything to do with market forces. These people aren't taking high-level white collar jobs from noble, hardworking white Britons; they're doing drudge work for rubbish money.

    [*]increasing crime (not the soul problem of immigrants, but mass immigration does not help)

    Well, that's a rather lame one tbh.

    [*]creating segregated communitys within communities as a result of "multiculturalism" i.e. not forcing people to integrate, instead allowing them to bring their full cultural identity with them.

I wish people would stop repeating this fallacy.

Multiculturalism requires integration; that's the whole point! The aim is to create a pluralistic national multiculture via the integration of many different ethnic, racial and cultural groups.

Segregation is what existed before multiculturalism. It continues today because some immigrants aren't interested in multiculturalism; they're still locked in a monocultural mindset. So please, don't blame multiculturalism for segregation; the two concepts are diametrically opposed.
 
Two no-brainers there. Top marks to Mr Powell for stating the obvious.

in 1968 it was not obvious in the slightest, it required foresight.


Is it? Can you prove that 51% of all jobs created in the last 10 years went to immigrants purely as a result of positive discrimination?

Last time I checked, they went to immigrants because (a) most of them were unskilled jobs, (b) most of them were also extremely low paid jobs, (c) most of them were jobs that a lot of people didn't want to do, and (d) most of them were jobs for which a great many people were were overqualified.

That's got nothing to do with positive discrimination, and everything to do with market forces. These people aren't taking high-level white collar jobs from noble, hardworking white Britons; they're doing drudge work for rubbish money.

if a person wants a job, if they can do that job, then being overqualified is no excuse. its a job, that person needs money. but because they have an A-level or an NVQ they cant clean cook or serve ?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7069779.stm read it yourself.





I wish people would stop repeating this fallacy.

Multiculturalism requires integration; that's the whole point! The aim is to create a pluralistic national multiculture via the integration of many different ethnic, racial and cultural groups.

Segregation is what existed before multiculturalism. It continues today because some immigrants aren't interested in multiculturalism; they're still locked in a monocultural mindset. So please, don't blame multiculturalism for segregation; the two concepts are diametrically opposed.

i didnt, the people who invented the idea did. watch the documentary.

Powell = a filthy racist.

indeed, thats why he lived in india for 4 years im sure.
 
  • the ammounts of immigrants comming in
  • the pressure on services
  • possitive discrimination (this led to 51% of all jobs created in the last ten years going to immigrants)
  • increasing crime (not the soul problem of immigrants, but mass immigration does not help)
  • creating segregated communitys within communities as a result of "multiculturalism" i.e. not forcing people to integrate, instead allowing them to bring their full cultural identity with them which leads to seperate paralel communities within the same towns and cities

pressure on services is the government getting rid of police, ambulance drivers, shutting down emergency centres to save money and general increase in waste of all taxes.

51% of all jobs created in the last ten years went to immigrants, any proof of that in any way or form? we have what 8% of the population as immigrants, and they took up 51% of new jobs? even on the very very very slim offchance that was true look at the jobs they are taking. Firstly this government is creating no new industry and decently paid jobs, the biggest growth area is tax paid jobs in public sectors, from my family and lots of friends working in these sectors there are some immigrants there but most are uk born people. Tesco's delivery is filled to the brim with polish guys, pizza delivery guys and in general, not great jobs are being done by immigrants. They are taking jobs that chavs seem to think they are too good for these days. They prefer going on the dole rather than helping or taking a crappy job.

Increasing crime, are you kidding me. In london, all around london with the largest percentage of immigrants in the country, I've been the victim of muggings in the past, and our house was burgled when much younger, lots of people i know living in all area's of london have been the victims of crime. None of them think immigrants are the cause of crime, all the people at school who have got mugged(there seemed to be a craze of several large gangs in Ealing who spent a good couple years just randomly being violent. one group of 30 odd people got all told i think 550 or so various crimes, from basic muggings, to bricking a granny in a station for her money and she died, it was thought that was 1/4 or so of what they were charged with and completely unknown number of other unreported crimes they commited) , none of them were mugged by immigrants.

When i walk in the streets of london late at night its not groups of immigrants i'm worried about, its the mobs, the groups of 20-30 chavs or gangs that simply roam around looking for trouble. immigrants are a big target of these groups which is why i rarely see groups of immigrants roaming the streets.

Forced intergration or forced loss of culture is ridiculous. Theres a balance to be made, no one should be forced to do anything they don't want to. If they come here legally and work and pay taxes they are entitled to live EXACTLY how they want while maintaining a certain level of civility and respect and not breaking the laws as set by the country at large. It would seem these days 90% of the trouble is caused by people who are upset they don't act british, than any of them actually acting so badly that it really affects anyone here at all.

Anyone that blames immigrants for our problems here are destined to ignore the real problems till we can't do anything about them.
 
pressure on services is the government getting rid of police, ambulance drivers, shutting down emergency centres to save money and general increase in waste of all taxes.

51% of all jobs created in the last ten years went to immigrants, any proof of that in any way or form? we have what 8% of the population as immigrants, and they took up 51% of new jobs? even on the very very very slim offchance that was true look at the jobs they are taking. Firstly this government is creating no new industry and decently paid jobs, the biggest growth area is tax paid jobs in public sectors, from my family and lots of friends working in these sectors there are some immigrants there but most are uk born people. Tesco's delivery is filled to the brim with polish guys, pizza delivery guys and in general, not great jobs are being done by immigrants. They are taking jobs that chavs seem to think they are too good for these days. They prefer going on the dole rather than helping or taking a crappy job.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7069779.stm




Increasing crime, are you kidding me. In london, all around london with the largest percentage of immigrants in the country, I've been the victim of muggings in the past, and our house was burgled when much younger, lots of people i know living in all area's of london have been the victims of crime. None of them think immigrants are the cause of crime, all the people at school who have got mugged(there seemed to be a craze of several large gangs in Ealing who spent a good couple years just randomly being violent. one group of 30 odd people got all told i think 550 or so various crimes, from basic muggings, to bricking a granny in a station for her money and she died, it was thought that was 1/4 or so of what they were charged with and completely unknown number of other unreported crimes they commited) , none of them were mugged by immigrants.

When i walk in the streets of london late at night its not groups of immigrants i'm worried about, its the mobs, the groups of 20-30 chavs or gangs that simply roam around looking for trouble. immigrants are a big target of these groups which is why i rarely see groups of immigrants roaming the streets.

Forced intergration or forced loss of culture is ridiculous. Theres a balance to be made, no one should be forced to do anything they don't want to. If they come here legally and work and pay taxes they are entitled to live EXACTLY how they want while maintaining a certain level of civility and respect and not breaking the laws as set by the country at large. It would seem these days 90% of the trouble is caused by people who are upset they don't act british, than any of them actually acting so badly that it really affects anyone here at all.

Anyone that blames immigrants for our problems here are destined to ignore the real problems till we can't do anything about them.
did i say immigrants were directly responsible for crimes ? no. I mean for the love of jebus i worked for an organisation for 7 years helping to resettle asylum seekers. The only thing i want to see is a curbing of migration and a breaking up of these seperate immigrant communities that have been created in places like bradford, wolverhampton ect ect.
 
in 1968 it was not obvious in the slightest, it required foresight.

No, any muppet could join the dots. It's what governments are supposed to do.

If a person wants a job, if they can do that job, then being overqualified is no excuse. its a job, that person needs money. but because they have an A-level or an NVQ they cant clean cook or serve ?

I am not saying that. But I can tell you that people are often refused a job on the basis of over qualification. I've been in that situation myself, and I know I'm not alone. Additionally, some jobs just don't pay enough for some people; a guy with a wife and two kids to feed can't afford to get a job paying £6 per hour. It just won't cover the household expenses. But a Polish worker over here on a work permit with wife and kids back home in Poland, can afford to take that job and still send money back home.


That link does nothing to answer my question.

Here is my question again: can you prove that 51% of all jobs created in the last 10 years went to immigrants purely as a result of positive discrimination?

You have not answered that question.

i didnt, the people who invented the idea did. watch the documentary.

********. I am watching the docco now.

You clearly have no understanding of multiculturalism, like so many people in this country.

indeed, thats why he lived in india for 4 years im sure

The British bigots who ruled the Raj weren't exactly poster boys for race relations. Just because you live in a foreign country, doesn't mean you're not a racist.

NO SWEARING
 
well, that bbc link seems to suggest that of 2.7million jobs created in 10 years, 1.1mil have gone to immigrants but they've decided to use the 2003 estimates of 2.1million jobs, rather than the ACTUAL number of 2.7million. Can anyone think of a reason other than being able to call it a different percentage to not use the real number, no, neither can I.

AS evangelion has pointed out and I did, there are plenty of willing workers who simply can't afford to be pizza delivery guys, or garbage men or any other essentially menial low paying jobs with little to no career prospects. Then there are the people who are refused the jobs for being overqualified. IE lots of jobs are paid on a scale based on experience. LOTS of employers like to strike a balance between hiring a numpty and hiring someone with so much experience that they will have to pay someone 25% more salery to do the same job, especially if its a more basic job that even a numpty with no experience can do.

Thats ignoring the ever increasing number of people who prefer to stay on benefits than work in burger king and for pizza places and where ever else there are crappy jobs. Frankly lots of people see themselves as above working In burger King and while i won't draw benefits while refusing a job there, I WOULD refuse a job working there and not take benefits.

We had a Sainsburys spring up at a petrol station just round the corner, fairly small but probably have seen a good 40-50 different people work there at various times, theres a lot of immigrants working there but frankly I don't know anyone I grew up with that would be happy working in a dead end job there. The more immigrants that take the menial jobs rather than skilled jobs, the more skilled jobs there are for non immigrants surely? I just can't see the real problem, well except when the UK gets so bad all the Polish and other immigrants go off in search of much better paid work in Canada and elsewhere and we have a massive void of menial jobs no one here wants to do.

It also required no foresight to predict people in war torn countries, or countries where there is genocide, and every increasing tension and political fighting, overthrowing of governments would want to move to a stable country with more money available. You would infact have to be incredibly dense to not forsee immigration increase.
 
Where are these rivers of blood then?

"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see “the River Tiber foaming with much blood”. That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. "

Looked it up, refers to the Aeneid. Sibyl’s prophecy to Aeneas of the wars he must fight in Italy: "wars, terrible wars, and the Tiber foaming with much blood" (Bella, horrida bella, Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine).

Say what you like, but an interesting man, from private to youngest Brigadier in the British army by the end of WWII. Double first from Cambridge, at 25 made Professor of Greek at Sydney University.
 
Looked it up, refers to the Aeneid. Sibyl’s prophecy to Aeneas of the wars he must fight in Italy: "wars, terrible wars, and the Tiber foaming with much blood" (Bella, horrida bella, Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine).

Say what you like, but an interesting man, from private to youngest Brigadier in the British army by the end of WWII. Double first from Cambridge, at 25 made Professor of Greek at Sydney University.

He was indeed an interesting man; clearly intelligent and well educated, with great potential. Had no idea he was a professor at Sydney University. :eek: Bit of a shame about that, but in those early days he probably wasn't the spittle-flecked monster that he later became.

I look at Powell and I think "There, but for a profoundly blinkered view of humanity, goes a potentially useful human being".
 
You would infact have to be incredibly dense to not forsee immigration increase.

Exactly. It's like saying "Nobody expected that a rise in pregnancies would lead to a rise in population".

Thats ignoring the ever increasing number of people who prefer to stay on benefits than work in burger king and for pizza places and where ever else there are crappy jobs. Frankly lots of people see themselves as above working In burger King and while i won't draw benefits while refusing a job there, I WOULD refuse a job working there and not take benefits.

I came to this country from Australia just over 4 years ago, on a visa that denied me any access to public funds; I could only use the NHS. Two years later, I received my British passport (simply applied for it, since my father was English).

During the whole time I have lived here, I've been unemployed on a number of occasions; probably a total of 9 months altogether. I've rejected jobs that didn't pay enough, and been rejected for jobs on the basis of overqualification. But I've never drawn a single welfare payment.
 
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