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Environmental change - What can we do?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Avenged7Fold, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 4,255

    Wind actually tracks monthly demand reasonably well in the UK. The big problem is variability. January's average capacity factor may be 40%. But that doesn't mean it can't be 20% in January 2019...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  2. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

    lol, stupid, the Planet is going to be destroyed. If they (Russia and USA) confuse themselves that they will escape to Mars, to the Moon or another place in the Universe, they must think twice.

    ""Rueanna Haynes, a delegate for St Kitts and Nevis, told the plenary it was “ludicrous” not to welcome a report that UN member nations had commissioned two years earlier and to hold up crucial talks over two words.

    “It’s very frustrating that we are not able to take into account the report’s findings: we are talking about the future of the world – it sounds like hyperbole when I say it, but that’s how serious it is,” she told the Guardian. “I would say that this issue has to be resolved. This is going to drag out and the success of the COP is going to hang on this as well as other issues.”

    Scientists were also outraged. “It is troubling. Saudi Arabia has always had bad behaviour in climate talks, but it could be overruled when it was alone or just with Kuwait. That it has now been joined by the US and Russia is much more dangerous,” said Alden Meyer, the director of strategy and policy in the Union of Concerned Scientists.

    He said the shift in the US position would be embarrassing for the country if it persisted. “Donald Trump is the denier-in-chief. He takes a personal interest in dissing scientists,” said Meyer. “But the science won’t go away. The law of thermodynamics can’t be ignored.”""

    US and Russia ally with Saudi Arabia to water down climate pledge https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ly-saudi-arabia-water-down-climate-pledges-un
     
  3. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46582025 Negotiators in Poland have finally secured agreement on a range of measures that will make the Paris climate pact operational in 2020.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/16/health/sutter-cop24-climate-talks/index.html
    'Planetary emergency:' After 30 years, leaders are still fighting about basic truths of climate science

    "That report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says carbon pollution must be cut about in half by 2030 and reach "net zero" by mid-century to avoid what could be described as disastrous climate change -- superstorms, floods and the like. Polish students walked out of school and into negotiations holding signs that underscored the urgency in this latest assessment of the science: "12 years left.""
     
  4. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,522

    I just wonder how anybody thinks that a UK energy network reliant on Solar, Wind and imported Gas/electrical tie ins would cope with a 1962/63 winter?

    To my mind, this needs to be the "Stress test" for any UK wide national energy policy.
     
  5. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

  6. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 4,255

    Why do you assume it would pose a particularly significant issue?

    To run the grid off solar and wind alone, we would need to be able to import enough electricity, via interconnects or hydrogen, for those days where output from wind/solar is very low. If we can import close to normal demand, then a 62/63 situation shouldn't be a particularly significant problem.

    Higher than normal demand coupled with wind turbines being turned off (due to high/low wind, or extreme cold) could present short-term (hours to a couple of days) problems where we would have to take action on the demand side. But average temperatures and average wind speeds in 62/63 weren't extreme. The majority of the turbines would remain operational for most of the winter.

    Under our current system, we would have to limit consumption over the long-term (days/weeks) as we would deplete our gas stores and become reliant on imported natural gas and live production from the North Sea. Neither source of gas can meet our full needs, and as a result, we would need to reduce demand to meet supply. This almost happened last year, and is one of the reasons why gas prices have risen so much over the past 12 months.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,127

    And solar still operates in the winter, but at reduced capacity.

    1962/63 winters have a very low return period, and now with global warming might not be seen for another thosuand years.

    There are also a lot of emergency measures you can put in place such is making industry go on hold when demand is highest. This is done in places like California on the hottest days when AC demand is too high the state can force certain industries to close.
     
  8. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 9,618

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Is also the case in the UK. We (work) can be shutdown.
    I can't remember our usage, but our elec bill is over a £M a year.

    Was having an interesting conversation with works electrical manager last week. he said one of the contractors on site had just finished 3 months on a solar array. They had massive battery storage on site, which is what he had been working on for the 3 months. So the solar wasnt feeding the grid during the day, but in fact later when other solar was dropping off as the light faded. May be pricing I suppose, as the market pays on supply vs demand then its maybe more beneficial to store whilst others are feeding and be able to fed the grid later when the supply drops and demand goes up with everyone going home?
     
  9. 200sols

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 14, 2018

    Posts: 2,374

    Location: Hampshire

    Build nuclear, it’s one of the safest and cleanest form of energy production. Solar or wind will never come close to meeting our needs.
     
  10. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

    Milan building towards a brighter, greener future https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/10/milan-building-towards-a-brighter-greener-future

    "But Milan now has another colour in mind - green. It has ambitious plans to plant three million new trees by 2030 - a move that experts say could help reduce the city's muggy, sometimes tropical weather."

    Well, solar will come close. Actually, I have seen projects for artificial "suns" in orbit which should redirect solar energy to some areas on the surface.
     
  11. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,624

    Location: Surrey

  12. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 6,000

    For the UK Solar is counter cyclic to demand on an annual and daily basis. 5pm 7th January will probably be as high a demand as we can predictably get in the next 12 months and Solar won't produce anything. Wind is also too erratic under current storage technologies because we frequently get 2-3 day periods with sub 10% wind load factors that coincide with high demand. We are paying for two generation infrastructures, the erratic and unreliable wind and the back up reliable thermal. That has a cost.
     
  13. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

  14. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 4,646

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46741346

    This is an interesting report, it suggests that since 2005 cutting energy consumption through efficiency gains (mostly driven by EU regulations) has saved more CO2 than renewable energy generation.
    Damn the EU and their pesky regulations, they took our money, our jobs, our sovereignty and now our CO2! :D Sorry I couldn't resist and I will go back to the Brexit thread...
     
  15. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 6,862

    Then import in winter and export in summer.
     
  16. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 6,000

    From where, are you suggesting we can import from the other side of the World? How big does the grid need to be to bring 300GW of Northern European demand at least a couple of thousand miles?

    Or we could invest in thorium and other molten salt reactors to produce energy where it’s needed when it’s needed.
     
  17. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,127



    energy form Fossil fuels has a tremendous cost that isn't incorporated into the current pricing.
     
  18. CaptainRAVE

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Nov 21, 2004

    Posts: 31,503

    It is really sad, but nothing will change. The ‘environmental movement’ makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Eventually the only place you will see unusual animals will be in the zoo (which represent the tiniest fraction of species and even then just those of our choosing), most others will have gone extinct. The only others you will see will be those that thrive with humans like rats and those we keep as pets.
     
  19. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,127


    There is an active project building a veyr large solar farm with thermal storage in Tunisia. Even in winter there is sufficient solar energy. Peoples estimates of the solar differences between winter and summer are greatly skewed due to temperature differences and how small changes in temperature in our environment can feel very different.


    Also, I know this is a uK forum but the topic at hand requires a global solution and solar is a significant part of the global solution. The UK is one of the worst countries in the world for solar capability, a sign of how truely dire the British climate is, but that doesn't detract form the potential across N and S America, Africa, Asia and most of Europe.
    https://globalsolaratlas.info/?c=49.61071,17.490234,3


    The UK will require greater diversity and may well require additional Nuclear power than other countries.
     
  20. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 4,646

    Lots of environmentalists are suggesting carbon pricing is the way forward. You can quickly say goodbye to 3p/kw for gas under that model.

    Things like wind, solar and storage will start looking very favourable in that scenario, as will nuclear.