Soldato
Ooh! Ferrari upset again, might have to leave F1 - good riddance IMO. 
Andi.
Andi.
F1 2021 engines
- Thread starter andicole0
- Start date
I'm please about the increase in RPM by 3,000 but F1 needs cheaper engines so small teams can turn up with a Cosworth engine so we have 30+ cars back on the grid, no blue flags and have massive fights like the good ol days, with our safety measures it'll be fairly safe.
Current suggestion is a bit thin in terms of changes but people are saying removing the MGU-H will require a massive design change as will the raising of the rev limit. More strain, more weight, more fuel and less reliability. Not the simple V8/10/12 that was hoped for - so far. Still a 1.6
Andi.
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Soldato
They're V6s.
Raising the rev limit is pointless as it stands, so I'd assume it'll come with an increase in fuel flow.
Details are a bit thin on the ground, but the suggestion is more common parts (so cheaper and lower barrier of entry) and a more prescriptive design. It might go as far as changing the head design to stop the pneumatic valve tech and restricting fuels/additives which allows them to run diesel esque compression ratios. This is where much of the advantage of Mercedes lays (and one of the reasons that the non-factory Mercedes teams don't get the same power from the same power unit).
Not sure whether that'll happen though. The current engine manufacturers will winge, but 2021 is 7 years after the current engines were introduced, and that seems about right for a change. Even then, there's got to be carryover.
As for Ferrari - they can **** off if they like. We've all heard it too many times before. Their brand is built around racing, and F1 is what they really do (there is GT racing, but no factory team, and coverage is nowhere like F1 levels). They need F1 more than the other way around. They've got to sell all that merchandise somehow. IMO F1 and other motorsports spend too much time, effort and money on fickle manufacturers (whilst Ferrari aren't fickle, that's only because the game's stacked their way. And they're still not that great considering how much help they get vs everyone else).
Raising the rev limit is pointless as it stands, so I'd assume it'll come with an increase in fuel flow.
Details are a bit thin on the ground, but the suggestion is more common parts (so cheaper and lower barrier of entry) and a more prescriptive design. It might go as far as changing the head design to stop the pneumatic valve tech and restricting fuels/additives which allows them to run diesel esque compression ratios. This is where much of the advantage of Mercedes lays (and one of the reasons that the non-factory Mercedes teams don't get the same power from the same power unit).
Not sure whether that'll happen though. The current engine manufacturers will winge, but 2021 is 7 years after the current engines were introduced, and that seems about right for a change. Even then, there's got to be carryover.
As for Ferrari - they can **** off if they like. We've all heard it too many times before. Their brand is built around racing, and F1 is what they really do (there is GT racing, but no factory team, and coverage is nowhere like F1 levels). They need F1 more than the other way around. They've got to sell all that merchandise somehow. IMO F1 and other motorsports spend too much time, effort and money on fickle manufacturers (whilst Ferrari aren't fickle, that's only because the game's stacked their way. And they're still not that great considering how much help they get vs everyone else).
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
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- 33,188
There is extremely little indication that oil usage is the advantage for Mercedes, in fact it's Ferrari who were investigated hardest by the FIA, Ferrari who Horner and a couple of others indicated were doing it, Ferrari who brought an engine after the oil reduction limit and have been hit by immediate reliability issues and it's Ferrari who have been seen with various extra reservoirs around the engine that most people seem to believe are oil tanks.
The engines will need a massive massive redesign to work without the mgu-h as 60-70% of the electrical power won't be there, turbo lag will exist, the optimisation of fuel, exhaust temps, turbo speeds, heat, cooling, engine maps, literally everything would change even if the fuel flow rate was the same but it sounds like it's going to be 20% increased to make up for the lacking efficiency/lack of electrical output, they'll probably go from near enough 100% of time on throttle having the 160hp being available to more like 20-30%, or even less if the mgu-k output increases as has been suggested.
Worst part really is the unlinking of electrical output from the engine, going back to a kers push to pass is a HUGE step back in technology and one that doesn't fit in with any future plans for any engine company. You have two routes forward in the future, hybrids and full electric, that is why all the major manufacturers in WEC and F1 were happy with hybrids, because the R&D might be done for their motorsport divisions but it was R&D that would be done regardless, so in effect it's free/cheap for F1, it's just a reason to do it sooner, quicker and better under pressure of competing somewhere they can run the engines and advance the tech while the costs are high and long before they can get them in road cars. Going back to a basic turbo with a bolt on mgu-k is different, designing and making the best and most expensive possible race engines using technology that has no future is essentially just a waste of money that is only for F1. That is why the companies wanted hybrids in the first place because that is where their future was, Renault and Merc may have left/not rejoined in Merc's case I guess, if the 2013/4 engines weren't pushing towards hybrids.
The engines will need a massive massive redesign to work without the mgu-h as 60-70% of the electrical power won't be there, turbo lag will exist, the optimisation of fuel, exhaust temps, turbo speeds, heat, cooling, engine maps, literally everything would change even if the fuel flow rate was the same but it sounds like it's going to be 20% increased to make up for the lacking efficiency/lack of electrical output, they'll probably go from near enough 100% of time on throttle having the 160hp being available to more like 20-30%, or even less if the mgu-k output increases as has been suggested.
Worst part really is the unlinking of electrical output from the engine, going back to a kers push to pass is a HUGE step back in technology and one that doesn't fit in with any future plans for any engine company. You have two routes forward in the future, hybrids and full electric, that is why all the major manufacturers in WEC and F1 were happy with hybrids, because the R&D might be done for their motorsport divisions but it was R&D that would be done regardless, so in effect it's free/cheap for F1, it's just a reason to do it sooner, quicker and better under pressure of competing somewhere they can run the engines and advance the tech while the costs are high and long before they can get them in road cars. Going back to a basic turbo with a bolt on mgu-k is different, designing and making the best and most expensive possible race engines using technology that has no future is essentially just a waste of money that is only for F1. That is why the companies wanted hybrids in the first place because that is where their future was, Renault and Merc may have left/not rejoined in Merc's case I guess, if the 2013/4 engines weren't pushing towards hybrids.
Soldato
I wasn't referring to the oil issue, more that the credit for the incredible performance at Mercedes goes to the fact that they worked incredibly closely with Petronas on fuels so they can run an insane compression ratio without detonation. I'm not aware if the other Mercedes teams run the same fuels, but it's certainly a significant part of the performance package. Mandating standard fuel/oils levels the playing field somewhat. Who knows if they're going to do that.
As for the MGU-K, I'm not sure they're going to a fully push-button setup, but as now the driver can change the mode to use less, saving power so it can be deployed in one go. I suspect it'll still be mapped in as it is at the moment.
One concern I do have is regarding fuel usage, and whether the cars will be any lighter as a result of the 2021 changes. If they're no lighter, and the engines require, say 20 kg extra fuel, it'll just make them even heavier at the start of a GP than now. Already we get Brundle/Coulthard moaning that the cars are so heavy at the start of a GP, which will only get worse.
I don't envy Liberty as whatever solution is picked, it'll have problems vs where we are now. I'm sure the balance can be found.
As for the MGU-K, I'm not sure they're going to a fully push-button setup, but as now the driver can change the mode to use less, saving power so it can be deployed in one go. I suspect it'll still be mapped in as it is at the moment.
One concern I do have is regarding fuel usage, and whether the cars will be any lighter as a result of the 2021 changes. If they're no lighter, and the engines require, say 20 kg extra fuel, it'll just make them even heavier at the start of a GP than now. Already we get Brundle/Coulthard moaning that the cars are so heavy at the start of a GP, which will only get worse.
I don't envy Liberty as whatever solution is picked, it'll have problems vs where we are now. I'm sure the balance can be found.
Soldato
why the focus on engines only with no mention of aero? that is a huge cost driver and basically means cars can't race nose to tail which is probably worse for racing than a 10kph difference down a straight
also it's not just Ferrari that are unhappy, Mercedes and Renault have also expressed concerns
also it's not just Ferrari that are unhappy, Mercedes and Renault have also expressed concerns
2021 proposals are a big step backwards.
Mercedes just beat 50% efficiency in the F1 engines, and now they want to up the rev limit *even though they don't touch the existing rev limit at the moment* and chuck more fuel in while scaling back the hybrid systems.
Great idea...
'But it'll be cheaper!' Certainly not the guys developing the engines as instead of being an evolution it'll be and entire new engine setup. More expense for them which they'll pass down to the other teams.
Mercedes just beat 50% efficiency in the F1 engines, and now they want to up the rev limit *even though they don't touch the existing rev limit at the moment* and chuck more fuel in while scaling back the hybrid systems.
Great idea...
'But it'll be cheaper!' Certainly not the guys developing the engines as instead of being an evolution it'll be and entire new engine setup. More expense for them which they'll pass down to the other teams.
2021 proposals are a big step backwards.
Mercedes just beat 50% efficiency in the F1 engines, and now they want to up the rev limit *even though they don't touch the existing rev limit at the moment* and chuck more fuel in while scaling back the hybrid systems.
Great idea...
'But it'll be cheaper!' Certainly not the guys developing the engines as instead of being an evolution it'll be and entire new engine setup. More expense for them which they'll pass down to the other teams.
True, but for new1 teams it's a considerable lowering of entry costs compared to the current Hybrid technology engines with MGU-K and MGU-H. Liberty and the FIA have a very tough choice ahead of them. bring in cheaper engines so they get new engine choices for new and existing customer teams but risk upsetting the existing manufacturers, or stick with what they have to prevent more spending but no other engfines available. And if Ferrari come through on their quit threat, 3 suppliers who could just as easily say 'Am oot!' and leave F1 up the creek without a paddle.
Soldato
I doubt it would come to that. If a couple of manufacturers quit, the temptation to stay and dominate for the remainder would be irresistible. All a big game of bluff...
Need to go back to V12s and keep it there. All this emissions nonsense for F1 is silly and has no impact whatsoever on the bigger picture.
Making small, powerful engines is much harder and more expensive than large powerful ones. That is why the smaller teams are having a harder time competing now.
Making small, powerful engines is much harder and more expensive than large powerful ones. That is why the smaller teams are having a harder time competing now.
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None of the manufacturers want an NA engine though. Except maybe Ferrari. In fact Honda said they'd never have come back, Renault said they'd leave and Mercedes weren't exactly thrilled at the thought of NA engines staying. Formula 1 won't ever have a fully NA engine formula ever again.
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Thinking F1 should go back to old technology is nonsense, f1 is partly a technological formula and as such it should absolutely be embracing hybrids.
They just increased aerodynamic downforce for this season. Although I agree it's too aero focussed they have this belief that an F1 car should be the fastest car round a track, which I'm kind of in agreement with.
The issue then is road car relevance. Only Ferrari make V12's these days and even that might die out thanks to emissions rules. Small, turbocharged engines with hybrid backup seems to be where most car makers are going these days so even if the current 1.6L V6 has very little to do with a road car engine they can at least say there's more relevance than a Supercharged V12. Although I wouldn't be surprised if MGU-H technology and lessons learned isn't on many test benches at the manufacturers seeing if they can make it reliable enough for road cars.Ok, supercharged v12 then
What road car relevance? Theres nothing in F1 that translates to a road car really.
The fact is in recent years, it's just been getting more and more boring. Because they are taking things in the wrong direction and making it to sensible and restrained. But also favouring the richer teams.
The fact is in recent years, it's just been getting more and more boring. Because they are taking things in the wrong direction and making it to sensible and restrained. But also favouring the richer teams.
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Soldato
Are you being serious?
Well now that you mention it. I was considering buying a 1 seater, open wheeled, carbon fibre, 700hp car for my daily commute...