F1 to consider AWD from 2021

Django x2 · 26 Oct 2017 at 13:48

Big talks next week in Paris with the constructors around the future of the engines (MGU-H vs MGU-K) and whether deployable 4wd is a possibility with front axle KERS motors.

I do enjoy all this tech, but it slow starts to make these cars so close to Formula E that there will soon be no distinction...

deuse · 26 Oct 2017 at 14:01

I think they will have front wheel Kers.

lunarwolf · 26 Oct 2017 at 14:56

at best it will be 10/90 - basically still rear wheel drive; however it could make things interesting if they change power settings during wet and slippery races.

tbh I just see prices going up with this, so I wouldn't encourage such a move as I would like to see more parity amongst the teams. the only way for more parity is budget caps and reducing costs to level the playing field

drunkenmaster · 26 Oct 2017 at 15:16

Django x2 said:
Big talks next week in Paris with the constructors around the future of the engines (MGU-H vs MGU-K) and whether deployable 4wd is a possibility with front axle KERS motors.

I do enjoy all this tech, but it slow starts to make these cars so close to Formula E that there will soon be no distinction...

Errm, what? Formula E is a motorsport so there will always be a closeness, Formula E is also electric power based, F1 will not in our lifetime be purely electrically powered full stop, there will never be that many similarities between them. The speed is monumentally different, the power level available is monumentally different, having a second kers system for the front wheels won't make them almost indistinguishable, the ruddy great big giant petrol engine in the back, the 100mph difference and the 200mil budget difference will mean they'll never be closer than they are right now.

There would also be no real need for frontwheel drive, it will end up just being traction control on 4 wheels instead of somewhat the built in traction control on the rear wheels they currently have. It doesn't cut power if the driver has his foot down, but the current kers can absolutely see wheel spin and reduce mgu-k input to reduce torque and then reapply it as traction is regained. Doing it on the front would just make the cars much easier to drive while adding weight but seemingly from everything we've heard doing very little to increase power generation meaning extra weight with very little efficiency gain. Easier cars that are slower is about the worst thing possible in terms of moving forward, you want harder to drive cars that separates the good from bad drivers.

Marvin · 26 Oct 2017 at 19:34

The article I read earlier suggested that the advantage could be increased mechanical grip, allowing the cars to run closer more easily. Not sure of that TBH, but cars were able to run close and have great battles including plenty of overtaking in the WEC (although the aero isn't so reliant on a front wing doing everything so maybe the end result can't be compared) which are also front wheel KERS generally.

Vertigo · 27 Oct 2017 at 10:20

drunkenmaster said:
Errm, what? Formula E is a motorsport

Any series in which the performance of cars can be affected by voting of fans isn't "motorsport".

Formula E is a joke.

Ryan-3 · 27 Oct 2017 at 11:37

The way LMP1-H's launch themselves out of a corner using this type of system is epic. I don't think this will help balance performance in any way and will add unwanted weight and even more complexity.

I honestly think a simple V6 (single/twin turbo), using KERS with a capacitor storage system for the front wheels would make them much lighter and potentially faster, especially through tight corners. That could also leave the smaller teams at a bit less of a disadvantage by using better understood technology, although would annoy the big teams like Ferrari/Mercedes who won't want it. The tanks they drive now are just not as exciting to watch or even look at when you compare them to the simpler, tighter packages that are the Ferrari 641 and MP4/4.

PinkFloyd · 27 Oct 2017 at 11:40

Wouldn't want AWD in F1. It's going to give the cars more traction and make them easier to drive - that's the last thing anyone wants! I'm all for it in Endurance racing, just not F1.

Yaayuh! · 27 Oct 2017 at 11:44

If anything, i want to see less traction and simplify the car.

But then again, i'm getting rid of F1 from Sky at the end of this season. I'm not sure what it is, probably a combination of things, but I'm just less interested in the sport. I don't feel the passion is there anymore.

this_is_gav · 27 Oct 2017 at 13:24

I thought the whole aim of the 2021 regulations was to reduce technical focus, not just distributing it over a larger area. It sounds just as expensive to design and implement as the V6s were.

It sounds like change for the sake of change.

Are they just pondering to Porsche in a desperate attempt to attract another manufacturer?

I also love how Ferrari's stance has changed in the last few years. They didn't want the V6, but accepted it over a V4, but now some of their road cars have similar systems they want to keep that level of complexity.

MooMoo444 · 27 Oct 2017 at 14:24

4 wheel drive would be great. It'll help when drivers go off track and help them keep grip. Max will love it

MissChief · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:41

In one way I can see why they want it. What better way to improve motor technology than have some of the best and brightest engineers looking at ways to make them lighter, more efficient and more powerful?

Alternatively, unless it's a spec part, (which makes development non-existent) costs will just keep on rising and, yet again, Ferrari, RB and Mercedes will make it work best by throwing endless amounts of money at it.

Make the engine simpler, the twin-turbo V6 with no MGU-H sounds like a winner and has got other car companies interested. Imagine having five or six engine manufacturers with engines available from two or three manufacturers for the independent teams, all at a fixed, FIA mandated cost?

El_Watcher · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:43

I would be interested to know where in the nose of the car they are going to fit an electric motor?
A front on impact with a heavy electric motor infront of the drivers legs is going to cause untold amounts of leg damage.
Unless they are going to widen the nose and make it less thin and pointy, at which point it is going to become more like an F1/WEC hybrid

Dup · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:47

El_Watcher said:
I would be interested to know where in the nose of the car they are going to fit an electric motor?
A front on impact with a heavy electric motor infront of the drivers legs is going to cause untold amounts of leg damage.
Unless they are going to widen the nose and make it less thin and pointy, at which point it is going to become more like an F1/WEC hybrid

Good point, they can't put it in the crash structure or eject it from the car in any way. I can only assume they will be in the hubs somehow and thus the tethers are part of the safety, but heat and weight could be a huge issue.

Mr Jack · 27 Oct 2017 at 17:30

Why do they regulate this stuff? Let the teams decide what makes their car fastest.

MissChief · 27 Oct 2017 at 18:16

Mr Jack said:
Why do they regulate this stuff? Let the teams decide what makes their car fastest.

Because costs will skyrocket while the racing will suffer. Imagine Brawn had the cash to keep developing their car with their superior car, except worse. One team would likely come up with something ground breaking or vastly superior and disappear off into the distance, forcing other teams to spend millions trying to catch up. Remember when red Bull would routinely get 1-2 on the grid and usually finish there too? Everyone said it was deathly dull.

Mr Jack · 27 Oct 2017 at 18:34

MissChief said:
Because costs will skyrocket while the racing will suffer. Imagine Brawn had the cash to keep developing their car with their superior car, except worse. One team would likely come up with something ground breaking or vastly superior and disappear off into the distance, forcing other teams to spend millions trying to catch up. Remember when red Bull would routinely get 1-2 on the grid and usually finish there too? Everyone said it was deathly dull.

Except that the biggest problems with teams doing this have come in the most locked down era. First Red Bull, then Mercedes, achieved this when other teams weren't allowed to test and development was severely limited.

this_is_gav · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:55

It's rare in the memory of most of us for there not to be a dominant car. The MP4/4, MP4/5, FW14B, FW15, B194, B195, F2002, F2004, BGP 001, RB7, RB9, W05 and W06 were all far ahead of their competitors with no real competition. Don't get me started on the 80s, 70s, 60s and 50s, where it was rare for a team not to dominate F1.

Things change in F1 all the time, but a dominating team is far from a new thing.

MissChief · 27 Oct 2017 at 21:51

this_is_gav said:
It's rare in the memory of most of us for there not to be a dominant car. The MP4/4, MP4/5, FW14B, FW15, B194, B195, F2002, F2004, BGP 001, RB7, RB9, W05 and W06 were all far ahead of their competitors with no real competition. Don't get me started on the 80s, 70s, 60s and 50s, where it was rare for a team not to dominate F1.

Things change in F1 all the time, but a dominating team is far from a new thing.

True, but seeing one team dominate isn't generally conducive to good races. The only real exception is Mercedes when they let their drivers race. As we saw in Hungary even when Vettel has a problem, Raikkonnen knew not to even bother asking if he could be let past. When Ferrari dominate it's incredibly dull. The lame attempt at a photo finish in Austria between M.Schu and Rubens for example and 'Fernando is faster than you'.

CaptainRAVE · 27 Oct 2017 at 22:08

I don't see the point of this. It doesn't make the series anymore relevant and only puts the cost up. Mercedes will still be at the front too.