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Fighting a losing battle ?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Moonpie2, 3 Jun 2006.

  1. Moonpie2

    Mobster

    Joined: 23 Dec 2002

    Posts: 2,788

    Location: Shiny Shanghai

    Can the police ever hope to make any headway in the fight against terror on British soil ?
    Discuss...

    I have just watched a report about that terror raid on Friday and a few points cropped up I'd like to share.

    1) The instant the shot was fired, there has to be some kind of enquiry. Forget that all the police who are armed are highly trained, no, we have to drag the people who are fighting for our freedom through the grinder for doing their job it seems.

    2) It is merely a day later and already the press and public are up in arms that there has been no comment about what happened or what they found.
    Why? Surely its just the media that makes us believe that we're entitled to know everything instantly. I for one could gladly wait months for info if it meant that the police could do their job efficiently and unhindered.

    3) The family of that Brazilian man (Charles DeMenezes (sp?) are filing some kind of complaint against the police FOR FRIDAY'S RAID. WTF ?

    4) When interviewing a muslim woman who lives near the scene, she said something along the lines of the following... "So every Muslim in England is a terrorist now? Just what information have they got ? None !! "
    Well excuse me Woman On Street, I didn't realise you had sat in on all the secret police meetings and shared in all the insider info.

    Is it possible for peaceful Britons to ever win against those that mean us harm while we continue to live in a PC society bound by red tape?

    ----------------

    And on a personal side note in regards to point 4, I believe that any Muslim who openly critisises the west/England/our government/our police force/our way of life is a potential liability and should be deported. I have no problem with ANY race/religion living here as long as they live by our laws and contribute to OUR society in a positive way, its when they live here and can do nothing but bitch and bash the west that gets on my nerves.
     
  2. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

    Joined: 2 Nov 2004

    Posts: 24,654

    Let me be the first to jump on this, because at least I'll do it politely.

    Basically, that would infringe what we consider to be fair that the comments of a person should lead to harsh consequences on the basis that they are in fact of religion A...

    However, what wouldn't be against our current standards is to acknowledge the role that Islamic nationalism has in promoting violence, due to the terror often employed to attempt political change. If this were done, we could outlaw Islamic Nationalistic organisations. Or, perhaps better still - outlaw religious political organisations full stop.

    Therefore all religious thought would be welcome, as long as it doesn't represent an organised effort to force that thought on other people or change the behaviour of others with threats of violence.
     
  3. Visage

    PermaBanned

    Joined: 13 Jan 2005

    Posts: 10,708

    Quite right too. The police have to obey the laws that they uphold. If you or I used a firearm in attempt to stop a crime (which is the condition that applies equally to the police) we would expect to be investigated. Why shouldnt they?

    A free press comes with pros and cons. IMHO the pros far outweigh the cons.

    Source?

    Wheras presumably you do?

    I've heard many (often contradictory) definitions of what PC is and isnt, but never have I heard that ensuring the law is upheld to be PC behaviour.....

    If we deported anyone who criticized society, Speakers corner would be empty.

    The right to criticise the society in which one lives is the most important freedom we have.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2006
  4. scorza

    Caporegime

    Joined: 22 Jun 2004

    Posts: 26,684

    Location: Deep England

    I don't really want to comment on whats going on in East London until there's more actual information available.

    However I do agree that we're fighting a losing battle. When the general population place more blame for the July 7th bombings on the government than the actual people who did it then you know somethings going wrong. Likewise, see on here how quickly people are prepared to claim that Sept 11th was all Bush's fault.

    History has a habit of repeating itself. One nation establishes itself as the dominant force in the (known) world, then goes soft, loses its empire, gets invaded by barbarians and eventually is destroyed. Once this was Rome, now its us. Unless we can learn from history and be ruthless to our enemy's once again then this country is finished within the next hundred years imo.
     
  5. Moonpie2

    Mobster

    Joined: 23 Dec 2002

    Posts: 2,788

    Location: Shiny Shanghai

    For point 3 I made, it was mentioned in the report I saw on BBC News24.

    For point 4 Visage, no I didn't sit in on the police meetings either, but what I do know is that you don't mount a 250 man operation based on no credible information.

    I do agree with Scorza's points though.
    The west is soft and we are being punished for it.
    I'm not saying we have to live under an iron fist, but we can't allow the PC brigade to stop us from doing what needs to be done.

    ........ unfortunaltely, we ARE allowing the PC brigade to do that.
    Criminal immigrants wandering our streets, useless ASBOs handed out to yobs who terrorise estates, Playstations in prisons..... I could go on, but I'm already wound up enough as it is. :mad:
     
  6. mr jamez

    Hitman

    Joined: 23 Nov 2003

    Posts: 755

    "We are doing this for your own good..."

    Something that has been used and abused many times. Which is why the police, government and security services need to be watched by us. If the officer did nothing wrong, he has nothing to fear ;)
     
  7. Visage

    PermaBanned

    Joined: 13 Jan 2005

    Posts: 10,708

    And I dont suppose you go to war in Iraq when there is no credible threat either?
     
  8. Moonpie2

    Mobster

    Joined: 23 Dec 2002

    Posts: 2,788

    Location: Shiny Shanghai

    Can the police ever hope to make any headway in the fight against terror on British soil ?
    Discuss...

    edit... Now I think about it, your point is quite bizzare.
    Are you comparing a British police operation with no international pressure to an invastion/war/liberation ?
    Presumably you think these police bust in there to steal his oil ? :)
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2006
  9. Shackley

    Banned

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    Posts: 3,054

    What if they happen to be a British Muslim ?
    To where would you deport them ?
     
  10. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

    Joined: 2 Nov 2004

    Posts: 24,654

    Which is exactly why I said we need a new discourse...
     
  11. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

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    They are 'British' Muslims but anyone who does that IS NOT British...
     
  12. Shackley

    Banned

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    Posts: 3,054

    Fair enough, they aren't British then. To where would you deport them ?
     
  13. VIRII

    PermaBanned

    Joined: 24 Jul 2003

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    The middle of the atlantic. Afterall if god wants them to survive then they will, if they die it is gods will that they die.

    We used to be able to banish people, why can't we do that?
     
  14. Gaygle

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Nov 2004

    Posts: 15,366

    Location: East of England

    You have issues to deal with:

    a) Where do you draw the line as to what is "free speech" and what is "worthy of deportation" speech?

    b) Unfortunately deporting people to the middle of the atlantic (dont get me wrong, i would be fully behind it! :D) isn't what we can do now a days.

    But yeah, i'm a firm believer of people like that Hamza bellnut should have been sent back 5 years ago. People that cause crap like that should just go!

    I heard some kid going on BBC News:

    "They're just arresting him because he's a Muslim and he's got a beard, so does that mean that every one thats like that is a terrorist"

    I can't state strongly enough how much of a retard that kid must have been. Has he thought that its usually people with beards and that are Muslim that blow stuff up!! That aside, police aren't gonna be like "ooo, i got a fun idea, lets get 250 of the guys together, a few bio suits and raid a house of a Muslim at 4am!". Unfortunately i think most of the young muslims think like the kid above, and feel they must join "the fight". I'm wound up now too!
     
  15. crashuk

    PermaBanned

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    well if they dont like it they can always leave, opps hold on if they go back they have no freedom speech etc... they all complain about their human rights in the uk ,if my girlfriend went over to a muslim country and refused to wear the head gear they would in prision her, they are break her human rights but know one is interested in a west persons rights in a muslim country, yet we have given in to so many of there cultural rights.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2006
  16. Shackley

    Banned

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    "Hide, witch, hide ! The good folk come to burn thee,
    Their keen enjoyment hid behind the gothic mask of duty."
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2006
  17. aumz

    Hitman

    Joined: 6 Feb 2003

    Posts: 751

    Location: Sutton

    I would be considered a British Muslim, so please tell me where I should be deported to.

    I have and always will criticise the government on any action on policy that I disagree with. The same goes for my local council/police/army/etc.

    This is my right, I pay my taxes and I use my vote. So to make any statement like that I have to assume you are prejudice towards muslims. What about non muslims who criticise. Are they allowed to stay or must they go also.
     
  18. Visage

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    No, Im making he point that just because someone says there is a credible reason for doing something does not mean that that reason is valid, or based on fact.

    So saying They wouldnt have used 250 men to raid a house without good reason' is as fallacial a thought process as 'They wouldnt have invaded Iraq unless they were certain there were WMDs'
     
  19. Visage

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    So you expect foreigners in this country to conform to *our* cultural norms, while citing in your example that we should be free to travel to other countrys without respecting *their* cultural norms?
     
  20. VIRII

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    You really do lack an appreciation for humour don't you :) Or sarcasm for that matter. There's a place in the atlantic called...... the Falkland Islands.

    You also failed to answer the banishment option..........