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Following on from Rittenhouse another Self defence tragedy ...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ChrispyKarma, 27 Nov 2021.

  1. Richie

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 7,781

    Location: 7th Level of Hell...

    @ianh - I disagree.

    I appreciate that the laws in America are different. However, had this been in the UK and I went into my house in the middle of an argument, got a knife and came back out and stabbed somebody to death, I would be prosecuted for murder.

    The main point here is that the step dad went back into the house to arm himself with a lethal weapon which, as far as I'm concerned, negates self-defense.

    If he was already armed at the start of the incident then that may have been different (spur of the moment argument) However, he went into his house to specifically retrieve a gun which could support the premeditation aspect.

    Why not just have a stand up fight with hands?
     
  2. Mr Joshua

    Mobster

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 4,157

    Exactly this, some kid is now without their dad for the rest of their lives.

    I don't know why the dad didn't step away once the gun was brought out but he's paid the ultimate price.

    Can't believe how blasé they seem to be about a fresh corpse on the front lawn.
     
  3. Thekwango

    Capodecina

    Joined: 5 Feb 2009

    Posts: 13,105

    Location: Northern Ireland

    The problem is the the law which allows the shooters actions to be ‘well within Texan law’

    There’s another video doing the rounds which shows the outcome of another similar ‘dispute’ - a pregnant Florida librarian (Google it) bumps a guy on a motor bike then drives off. Bike guy follows her home then phones the police. Before they arrive the lady comes out of her house and points a gun at him and another witness to the original vehicle bump. Bike guy has a concealed weapon (legal) which he draws and kills her with. Mental country.
    Some folk talk about how cheap life is in 3rd world or poorer countries, not much value to life in America either it seems.
    For all their supposed American greatness it really is a crap hole of a country populated by retards, idiots and cowards.
     
  4. ianh

    Soldato

    Joined: 12 Jul 2007

    Posts: 6,381

    Location: Norfolk.

    From the reddit thread it seems like the woman filming didn't realise it was a "real gun" because it looked funny and sounded muted so she thought it was a paintball marker etc and it was only at the end of the clip when the camera goes black where she started to realise that the guy was actually shot.

    As for the guy shooting, I'd suggest that he's just going through the fairly common "disbelief" stage of stress where it's not really sunk in yet and he's more angry that the guy didn't just walk away from his repeated "I told him to walk away" statement rather than realising the enormity of what he's done. If you see enough videos of shootings you see this stress reaction a lot.

    To you maybe, but to Texans with their laws around self-defence the guy was within his rights to decide to arm himself after telling an angry "trespasser" to leave who then refuses to comply.

    He'll just say "the guy was bigger than me and being aggressive and, as I felt threatened by him, I got my firearm for my safety and he still wouldn't leave my property when told. I even fired a warning shot to get him to leave but instead he said "you'd best use it before I take it off you and use it on you" and made a grab for the gun and so I was left with no choice as he'd already told me he was going to shoot me and i believed him...........etc" and, due to the odd almost Old Western-based "Castle Doctrine" they still have, he'll have a good chance to getting away with this.

    Personally I think he'll fail "some" of the Castle Doctrine defence myself but I do think that the actions of the "aggressor" in saying "you'd best use it before I take it off you and use it on you" before ignoring a warning shot then attempting to grab the gun will be enough for a jury to decide that self defence was used as going back into the house to fetch a gun won't have anywhere near as much of a negative effect in court (although the prosecution will claim it does) as we in the UK would imagine it have, as the act of arming yourself is perfectly legal in Texas.

    Again, whilst I'm 100% on the "aggressors" side for the custody rant etc, every single one of his actions from the second he saw that gun were just dumb as **** and directly led to his death, which is what the defence will be hammering home in their case should this go to court (I think it will).
     
  5. Dave85

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Jan 2004

    Posts: 9,003

    Location: Sunny Scotland

    Watched the video and on first watch I was shocked and totally with the that you cant really argue self defence. But after watching it again a few times seeing how the "big" man acted thinking he was hard then threatening the other man ignoring his warning shot then trying for the gun he really is in my opinion within the right to use the gun for self defence. I actually think the smaller guy showed some real restraint at first from the big guy squaring up and doing nothing but puffing his chest out trying to instigate a fight first so he was not in the wrong. As someone said he brought fists to a gun fight at that point and stupidity cost him his life.
     
  6. kinetic747

    Mobster

    Joined: 2 Apr 2006

    Posts: 2,970

    It's insane what goes on over there. A few punches thrown over here with the loser licking his wounds and pride dented. Untold mayhem over there with lives ruined all round. :(
     
  7. Longbow

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 15 Jan 2004

    Posts: 9,836

    Why should he have to do that?

    Why didn't the father stop trespassing? Instead he had to get aggressive and square up to the guy. When a Texan tells you to leave his property, you do it.
     
  8. Dave85

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Jan 2004

    Posts: 9,003

    Location: Sunny Scotland

    Exactly I do not understand this with people who think a fist fight is some unwritten rule. If you have a gun it's to stop you getting in a fist fight you might lose.
     
  9. kinetic747

    Mobster

    Joined: 2 Apr 2006

    Posts: 2,970

    Texas sounds like it's stuck in a time warp.
     
  10. FBi7

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 19 Jun 2009

    Posts: 1,168

    Location: Central Scotland

    That's awful to watch. Columbus has a lot to answer for!
     
  11. Richie

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 7,781

    Location: 7th Level of Hell...

    Nothing to do with an "unwritten rule". I mention fist fight because that's how it was at the start i.e. there were no guns so it could only escalate to punches if at at all.

    The only issue I have is that the stepdad purposely went into his house to get a gun. Up until that point, the dad was merely verbally aggressive to his ex wife.

    Once the gun appeared, this escalated the situation and caused more harm than good.

    I have no issues with self defence however I don't believe this to be self defence unless some new evidence appears.
     
  12. Longbow

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 15 Jan 2004

    Posts: 9,836

    But why should the homeowner have to get into a fist fight, that he's potentially going to lose, and potentially die from? After all, more people are killed in the US from kicks and punches than rifles.

    The father was told to leave the property, he didn't, that's criminal trespass. What he did was in fact square up to the boyfriend in a "come at me bro" fashion showing physical aggression, a fight was about to break out, so he escalated it initially. The boyfriend then armed himself with a carbine, this is called the use of force continuum, you don't want to be equal in force to the aggressor, you want to be higher.

    Whether this turns out to be a murder will require a court case, but one thing I can say for sure, the father is a colossal moron, he walked into the lion pit and tried the Muhammed "I'm hard" Bruce Lee approach; it failed. If you act aggressive towards people who are armed, be prepared to meet the slab. This man learnt the hard way, as did several people in the Rittenhouse case. Welcome to America.
     
  13. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: 13 Aug 2003

    Posts: 19,654

    Location: UK

    I watched it one time only. I thought it was strange at first as well. I thought it was an air soft gun at first until the camera returned to the body. I've no clue about guns but what made it so quiet, do shotguns normally have silencers?

    The other strange thing I thought as he stands on the porch, was the way how he casually stands in anger after the incident like it's no big deal.
     
  14. hurfdurf

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Dec 2009

    Posts: 9,851

    Indeed. How is it ok that big man gets to use his size and strength to force his way, but little man grabs a tool too even the odds and some how it’s unfair on big man?

    If you want to stand and bang, be prepared for the consequences. **** around and find out. Physical aggression and bullying is not ok. That’s Texas.

    Should it have been de-escalated, yes. Could it have been, probably. Would it fly in most of the world? Certainly not here in the UK.

    I feel very sorry for the kid.

    On top of that, there’s now accusations the guy was invited over and lured into anger by the parents playing games with the kid. If there’s evidence of this, then this is more like premeditated murder, using the law of self defence to entrap someone to execute them legally. That suddenly makes it very complicated and hard to justify.
     
  15. Roar87

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 10 May 2012

    Posts: 7,628

    Location: Leeds

    I don't think a Jury see's this in the same way as what happened with Kyle Rittenhouse, the man he shot was unarmed, threw no punches, I don't believe he even threatened anyone except with court action. This guy will get what's coming to him. I feel sorry for the deceased father, he was angry understandably but he should have walked away immediately when the guy came out with a gun. Please don't **** around with people who have knives or guns.
     
  16. hurfdurf

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Dec 2009

    Posts: 9,851

    He literally tries to take the gun whilst saying “I’m going to take that gun and kill you”, if the little guy didn’t hang on to the weapon, where you can see him get flung with it, the reverse might have happened.
     
  17. kindai

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 9 Aug 2013

    Posts: 8,143

    Location: Bromsgrove

    He had a court order to be there to collect his kids according from some sources.

    So if thats true, then no, its not criminal trespass.
     
  18. Rimsy

    Soldato

    Joined: 13 Sep 2008

    Posts: 5,019

    Ego does seem to be everything over there. Still quite scary watching the place slowly implode though.
     
  19. dave28

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 28 Jun 2013

    Posts: 1,604

    Nice warning shot mate, or how about aim for the long big things called legs so he has a small chance of not being dead afterwards
     
  20. i know nothing

    Mobster

    Joined: 6 Feb 2004

    Posts: 3,428

    Location: Norfolk Broads

    But before he went in and got the gun they were just finger pointing. It was only after he got the gun... which clearly escalated the situation... that it all went south.