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French immigration "The politically correct have caused too much havoc in this country."

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Lord-Jaffa, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,737

    Location: Essex

    Of course it is! Economic success is the main driver of immigration.

    If an economy can genuinely no longer sustain an influx, then people stop coming.

    Economies flex with their populations, they always have and they always will. If they didn't, then the USA, being made up almost entirely of unfathomably huge influxes of European immigrants, would have a 99% unemployment rate and would consist of 330 million people all trying to cram into a handful of Cherokee tepees.

    The simple act of having a larger population not only means an increase in tax receipts, but it means that there is a higher consumer base, which in turn creates greater demand, and subsequently, more jobs.

    We only have to look back at old Daily Mail articles from the 20's to see how this infantile anti-immigration stance has changed very little. Back then they were saying that the UK could not sustain the population increase of Jewish immigrants and later refugees. Move on a few years it was Indian, Polish, Romanian etc. The arguments were the same each time, with them spelling out doom and gloom due to overpopulation, collapsing infrastructure, not enough housing etc. Did it happen? No. Instead our population doubled and our economy jumped from 8th in the world to 5th.

    We are around 51st in the world in terms of population density (268 per km2) with many highly successful countries having more than twice our current level. The Netherlands for instance has a density of 407 per km2.
     
  2. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,350

    The people that end up living in the same areas, do not like due to to culture clash, lack of integration, seemingly get more help than local scumbags, you see it happening everywhere yet when you mention it as in issue you are instant racist/bigot. The economy is so far away from people with very little the could not give a hoot about it, nor should they. The system has failed them already middle class NIMBIS
     
  3. 200sols

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 14, 2018

    Posts: 2,001

    Location: Hampshire

    So you want to celebrate the fact we could become even more crowded and congested? Or to build over more countryside? Like I said, with more investment in services and infrastructure people would not complain half as much. If the country is doing so well, this money should be easy to find, but it isn't.
     
  4. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,256

    The system has not failed them, the conservatives love brandishing out the lovely bootstraps meme, why the hell don't they listen to their own claptrap? Maybe it's entirely their own fault for being in whatever perception of mess they believe they're in?
     
  5. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,737

    Location: Essex

    Logical fallacy: A straw-man argument.

    You've literally just answered your own question... Think about it:

    1. Our population has been increasing.
    2. We therefore have seen an increase in tax receipts.
    3. All evidence on the matter calculates this net increase to be around £20 billion over the last decade, and if you include "pure goods", then it's around £80 billion.

    So... Where is the money?

    Answer - Our government has repeatedly made political and fiscal decisions that are demonstrably negative (for us).

    Rather than invest in public services and infrastructure to align with our increasing population, benefiting us all, they've cut their budgets and stripped spending to the bone. All the while, among other things, simultaneously introducing tax-breaks for wealthier individuals and corporations who were lobbying them.

    I hate saying the above because it almost sounds like some kind of cliched anti-business, anti-Tory rhetoric, which does not accurately describe my politics at all, but at this point, it's categorically true and it can't be ignored.

    The decisions they've made have resulted in a hollowing out of the middle class, an increase in pressure on public services, and a dramatic increase in poverty.

    And over the same time period the richest people in the country have doubled their net wealth.

    In order to prolong the amount of time they could get away with such destructive policies, they promulgated economic falsehoods that are entirely without academic merit, and promoted an anti-immigrant narrative in order to detract from their very deliberate failings.

    In a nutshell, they pointed the finger elsewhere and said "look over there, those foreigners are taking your biscuit crumbs" so that the public had an easy scapegoat to blame for the real-word impacts of their political decisions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  6. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,350

    Just LOL, you think these areas are conservative voters ? They could not give a damm about politics they are forgotten, no one has listened or done anything for them for decades. The start they have had in life is not fair, not equal. Then you get right wing picking up on it and all of sudden they see action for what has been happening to them, rightly or wrongly an appeared listening voice. Instead of the left wing TOUGH la la la la la la la la la la la la fingers in ears.

    Labour made the problem and refused to even talk/listen about it. Tory`s are just making it worse and gaining votes as they are at least pretending to listen & talk about it. (it suits them to keep housing hard to get)

    But this is France, a much bigger land mass apart from the cities, so the cities must be having enough of it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,981


    In order to invest in infrastructure and the NHS you need increased tax revenue. Immigration directly increases tax revenue. A higher Gasp means more money that can be spent on individuals and infrastructure

    You also need the skilled workers.

    The NHS would collapse without the current immigration levels.
     
  8. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,350

    But also their would be less people.....just sayin :)
     
  9. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,981

    Less people who are poorer with less opportunities and increasing taxes
     
  10. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,350

    Really now.... lots of NHS position available or is becoming a nurse not a opportunity these days ? Maybe start training people up again instead of closing all the training down and getting fully trained staff in from elsewhere ? What a crazy idea, it costs to much of course lets raise tax just to get this great system before we closed it all down for fully trained people from elsewhere.
     
  11. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 3,980

    Illegals and asylum seekers should be deported to some god forsaken country in Africa who'll take a cheeky lump sum to take on some surplus population. I believe the DRC is in needs of a financial investment.
     
  12. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    We would also have the same underlying issues. Chronic under investment (particularly in the North of England), wage stagnation and year on year decrease in pay for the working and middle classes with an ever increasing gap between the wealth of the average Briton and the tiny wealthy elite.
     
  13. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,256

    We do, they dont want to work long hours with ******* patients who think they're gods gift, so they leave sharpish for much better environments. Forcing them to work a limited period will just mean people don't bother at all. The problem is not lack of nurses, it's barely immigration, the problem is a horrific Tory desire to kill the NHS slowly with horrific work hours/expectations/privatisation that doesn't work.
     
  14. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,988

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    So what do you propose to solve the problem of paying for our ageing population? People who 'question immigration' as you put it tend not to have any workable alternative proposals and I can't imagine you're going to be an exception to this rule.
     
  15. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,988

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    Not really, no. £25k (assuming they're a Band 5) is not exactly aspirational stuff. Especially not considering the amount of training needed (with the associated student debt) and the poor working conditions.
     
  16. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 12,457

    Well all public sector workers are underpaid, except MPs ofc.
     
  17. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,981

    Actually, if MP pay was more in line with industry standards then you would get much better politicians. Instead you get those who fail in industry.
     
  18. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    The average pay for the chief executives of a FTSE company is 5.3 million and rising disproportionately all the time.

    A technocratic elite earning vast fortunes which had a lifestyle and income far removed from normal citizens.

    Hmmm. I wonder who's interests such a ruling class would represent?
     
  19. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 12,457

    No we would get even more self centered and greedy ones.

    The best and most intelligent people are not motivated by money. Just like (ironically) the best leaders often don't want to lead, because they have the foresight to see problems and don't want to be the fool dealing with them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  20. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    Japan has introduced extreme measures as it has an aging population and a declining workforce. It cannot afford health problems within its workforce as it is not going to have enough of a workforce to sustain its elderly population, its not designed to exclude people from employment although that's been the consequence.

    Good idea if it works but unemployment is associated with adverse health conditions rather than improvement and the system is designed to ensure people stay in work rather than become unemployed, so in this regard it would appear to be a fail.

    The situation with weight loss and female population is a further complication . It can lead to health complications with underweight babies which can lead to a range of health issues later in life.

    U.K. would face similar issues with a strict immigration policy. It seems to me that solutions to the issues it would create are difficult to resolve, Japans attempt to tackle the problem is extreme and its outcome is entirely uncertain and not without the risk that it may damage rather than improve public health.

    The potential to impact reproductive health when you have declining population of working age and the fact that in practice its excluding workers from a declining workforce illustrate the problematic nature of decision making under pressure and the issues of law becoming something of an ass when you move to the extreme.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019