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Garage possibly messed up part installation - need proof

Discussion in 'Motors' started by DB_SamX, 20 Nov 2020.

  1. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    I had my 2012 GT86 serviced +MOT in August at nearest Toyota dealership. They advised lipped discs + pads wearing thin all round and NSR wheel bearing needing replacement soon (I had noticed a noise).


    I ordered all the parts (OEM from another Toyota dealer who had sale on, recommended by another GT86 owner on here), and booked to have the work done by my local indy (garage 1) in Winchester. This was done mid October. All seemed fine other I didn't notice a noise reduction - but I assumed everything was replaced ok (as all correctly stated on invoice).


    Cue two weeks ago when I started hearing a small noise coming from OSR wheel, almost like nail/screw had gone in. I didn't drive for a few days due to lockdown and tyre didn't seem flat, so I thought maybe a stone was stuck or something. I had to drive 35 miles to my parents (my social bubble) to pick up some meds last weekend. On that journey, the noise got worse and worse to the point I started panicking and gingerly made it to theirs Saturday night. First thing Sunday morning, I drove it slowly to the nearest garage open, which was a Kwik Fit 2 miles away. They lifted the car up and checked the wheels in front of me. It was obvious the OSR wheel was "wobbling" sideways a lot; the others were fine. They recommended the wheel bearing to be replaced urgently - I thought fair enough, if one side was on its way out, then it's to be expected the other side would too. I drove the car back to my parents and left it there, taking a family car back to Winchester and ordered a new wheel bearing from the same dealer. I had the car booked in today to have the work done at an indy (garge 2) my family use near their house.


    When I picked up the car today, garage 2 stated on the invoice that they recommend NSR wheel bearing should be replaced. I was confused and told them it was replaced a month ago. They said it wasn't possible because it looked old. I then asked them how the OSR wheel bearing they replaced looked like - they said it looked new, but had been improperly installed, hence the wheel was wobbling. They said they didn't think it could be reused anymore as a result, and that garage 1 had done a shoddy job. See photos below of OSR wheel bearing garage 2 removed today, which I kept. On my way back to WInchester tonight, the horrible wheel noise is gone, which leads me to believe garage 2 have done the job ok.



    In summary, if garage 2 is to be trusted, garage 1 not only replaced the wrong side of wheel bearing + did it unsafely/incorrectly, leading it to fail!



    I am going to go to garage 1 Monday morning to see what they say about the above.


    Questions before I go:
    - From the photos below, does this removed wheel baering look new, as you would expect it to be 4 weeks use (800 miles maybe) or from any serial number inscribed on the part, as opposed to being several years old??
    - Is there any way of proving that the removed wheel bearing is faulty and unusable now, as I can't tell personally? (If not, I would want garage 1 to order a new NSR wheel bearing and install it at their cost again). If they challenge it, could I get my Toyota dealership to inspect it?
    - Can i assume that I can prove garage 1 replaced the incorrect wheel bearing if I ask them to remove the NSR wheel bearing to show it to me and it looks rusted or batterred i.e. years old (because it was never replaed in the first place and probably several years old)?
    - Anything else I can check to confirm my assumptions garage 1 got it wrong?


    Also, I should say, garage 1 knocked out one of my ABS sensors when they had my car in October, but ordered a new one and replaced it the week after. I wonder if that is related at all...? I have no paperwork for this, as I obviously didn't pay for anything.

    Edit: just playing devil's advocate. What if garage 2 is lying and there is nothing wrong with NSR bearing, and they just told me that (without any inspection) to generate more work for themselves (they didn't know about the work to NSR bearing the month before)?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2020
  2. Diagro

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 3 Jun 2012

    Posts: 9,821

    I mean.... Good luck.

    Take it back and tell them. The noise is still. There...
     
  3. Conscript

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2004

    Posts: 10,026

    Location: Kent

    Hi @DB_SamX...just saw your private message :)

    To answer your questions as best I can:
    1. Yes, that bearing definitely looks new. It looks exactly like the ones I just replaced, only with, as you say, a few hundred miles of muck on them. But if they were the original bearings, they would definitely have a lot more wear and tear on them (surface corrosion on the body).
    2. It should be fairly easy to tell if the bearing is good or bad, just by holding it in your hand and turning it. It should feel smooth and there should be absolutely no play in it whatsoever. If the bearing was so bad that it was causing the wheel to wobble, then you'd know straight away. If the bearing still feels pretty good, then it would point to incorrect installation maybe (disclaimer: if they had to remove the bearing by force, this might not apply - my bearings took such a hammering to remove, that by the time they were out, they had basically fallen apart. With that bearing being so new though, hopefully garage 2 were able to remove it with little hassle).
    3. If you took a look at the NSR bearing, it would be immediately obvious if it was still original. That mounting plate (where the four holes are for the bolts) would be rusty as opposed to the greyish finish of the new bearing in your pictures.
    4. You could maybe check the axle nut which secures the driveshaft into the hub. Did you buy a new axle nut to supply garage 1 with, alongside the new bearing? It's not mandatory, but they should be replaced, really. If it hasn't been replaced, that too would be obvious - the nut will be quite heavily corroded, as opposed to the nice shiny new nut in your pictures.
    5. The wheel speed sensor does need to be removed first in order to remove the bearing.

    One thing i have noticed....the 32mm nut in the pictures...is that the one that came off with the incorrectly fitted bearing? If so, then it certainly looks like it has not been fitted correctly.
    When replacing the bearing, the new axle nut should be tightened up once the new bearing is in place (to 190Nm), to secure the driveshaft. The nut should then be "staked" - that is, you take a flat screwdriver, place it on the outer edge of the nut, and then hammer it so it bends into a recess on the end of the driveshaft (see video below). This should prevent the axle nut from undoing itself.

    Could you show us a close up pic of the nut to confirm? If that has not been done, then it might point to evidence of a shoddy installation - and indeed, if they didn't torque it up properly AND they also didn't stake it, then perhaps it came loose enough to cause the driveshaft to move. I'm not sure this would have caused wobbling, but I'd certainly expect it to be noisy and dangerous.

    With all that said - replacing the bearing isn't exactly a hard job. See the video below - it's undo the axle nut, remove the wheel speed sensor, undo the 4 bolts holding the bearing in, then remove the bearing. Then you just need to clean up the mating surfaces, apply some grease, and refit it all, making sure to pass the driveshaft back through the bearing splines. If the wheel bearing was wobbling, I can only assume the retaining bolts weren't properly reinstalled or something.

    I managed to do this all on my driveway, and although getting the bearing out of the knuckle was a chore (this guy obviously lives somewhere with no salty winter roads :p), the procedure itself isn't difficult. So a bit worrying that a proper garage couldn't manage it. But yeah, it does certainly seem like garage 1 put the new bearing on the OSR when it should have been destined for the NSR.

     
  4. Rom

    Gangster

    Joined: 28 Sep 2008

    Posts: 276

    Location: Bristol

    As above, I wont go into so much detail, repeating the answers.

    But that bearing is definately not the original. Would agree it looks pretty much new.
    That nut has not been staked (if they are meant to be) though if the nut was loose, Id like to think garage 2 would have said so.
    If the new bearing is knackered, it should either feel rough to rotate, or have play in it (would have to be really knackered)
    If it has niether of these, its a quick job to refit it to the car, and see if the issue returns.

    The sensor shouldnt have any impact, it just picks up off the back of the bearing, it doesnt touch anything, or do anything. Just picks up off the magnetic ring.

    With any garage, even main dealers, you are at the mercy of the staff working on it. Ive been in the trade 20 ish years, 10 being with Toyota and have seen some shocking things. As with everything in life, not everyone is equal. You get good techs, and bad techs.
     
  5. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    Cheers; I knew you'd clarify those things.

    I watched a few videos like you posted, and I agree, it should be easy enough for me to spot old vs new hub and nut on Monday - fingers crossed it's obvious!

    Yes, as per your recommendations, I had bought a nut with each hub.

    The one I got back today, and see photos below, are indeed the one garage 2 removed today with the incorrectly fitted bearing. There is no sign of staking, which implies it indeed wasn't done up properly.

    I presume staking isn't a GT86-specific issue, so I would assume a competent mechanic would know to do it?

    Assuming garage 1 does admit they got it wrong, what's your opinion on re-using the hub and nut I have, or should I push for a brand new Toyota one? (It looks barely used and fine to my untrained eye)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. IAmATeaf

    Soldato

    Joined: 3 Apr 2007

    Posts: 7,220

    Location: South of the Watford Gap!

    I watched the video, with it being so simple even though garage 1 replaced the wrong side, what could they have got so wrong that it failed? Is it simply not staking the nut? So it worked loose with the result that the wobble then damaged it? Also is the bearing interchange between both sides?
     
  7. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    Ta,

    I also just checked my dashcam footage. It recorded the car being driven into garage 1 and a young lad starting to lift it (dashcam records for a few minutes after car is switched off), but sadly it doesn't record the rest of the work.

    Thankfully I do have footage of the horrendous wheel noise on Saturday and Sunday, when I thought it was gonna go pear-shaped. I also have footage of the Kwik Fit inspection, though no details. This should at least prove to garage 1 I have had legitimate concerns about the issue.

    If there is interest, I can put up footage about the wheel noise when driving.
     
  8. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    I can't comment about staking the nut and wobbling.

    But, yes, the bearings are interchangeable as far as I know because, when I ordered them, they arrived with the same Toyota part numbers.
     
  9. Rom

    Gangster

    Joined: 28 Sep 2008

    Posts: 276

    Location: Bristol

    Many nuts are staked, so no, not specific. Look all the way aroudn the top front edge, thats where it would be staked. So left pic, rotate it, can only see bottom half. Though the inner threaded part would show if the top edge was staked. Though to remove it, the staked in part would no longer be staked, but would be signs it was previously staked, if that makes any sense!
    Whilst best practice to replace nuts like that, most places would reuse them, without issue mostly. A lot of manufacturers specify a lot of nuts, bolts etc are one use. But outside of a the branded dealer network, thats unlikely to happen.

    If they say they changed the wrong side. You still have garage 2 saying the bearing they removed is faulty?
    Me personally, id fit it to the car, and try it. But it would take me no time, and cost me nothing but fitting, roadtesting, and removing if needed.
     
  10. Conscript

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2004

    Posts: 10,026

    Location: Kent

    Indeed, it's not GT86 specific...the bearing and presumably driveshaft setup is probably the same as lots of other Subaru models, so I would certainly expect them to know what to do. Especially as its obvious when removing the old bearing, as you should unstake the existing nut to take it off cleanly.

    As for reusing the existing bearing...its a tough one. If the wobbling was purely caused by being fitted badly, then it might be fine. That said, it's only 100 quid. Reusing that nut would be fine though. I think I would probably pressure garage 1 to own up to their mistake and just fit a brand new bearing for you (to the correct wheel this time!). If not...i think I'd still err on the side of caution and buy a new bearing.

    I don't think that caused the wobble. The bearing assembly is bolted securely to the suspension knuckle with those 4 bolts, and the wheel is bolted onto the bearing assembly hub. The nut in question just secures the driveshaft which slides into the middle of the whole lot, it doesnt support the wheel...even if the driveshaft nut came off completely, the wheel would still be secure. There wouldn't even be enough lateral movement for the driveshaft to come out of the middle of the bearing. So I imagine it would cause noise as it slid in and out, but it shouldn't affect the wheel stability...indeed, being splined, you'd probably still have drive to the wheel.

    My theory is that they didn't seat the bearing in the knuckle properly square, and then as a result, they didn't torque up those 4 securing bolts properly, result being that it eventually started to work loose. I doubt the failure to stake the driveshaft nut was the cause of the problem, but it's definitely a sign of negligence.

    And yes, the bearings are interchangeable from side to side.
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2020
  11. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    Sorry, what do you mean?

    Garage 2 didn't say the bearing was faulty. I didn't grasp the details, but it was along the lines along how they hadn't installed it properly, hence the noise I was hearing. At ag uess, it's possibly they meant the nut hadn't been staked or hub torqued properly.
     
  12. gc123

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 19 Dec 2002

    Posts: 1,434

    checked original photo and noticed grease in threads
     
  13. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    Meaning?
     
  14. "andy"

    Capodecina

    Joined: 9 Jun 2005

    Posts: 13,909

    this is getting very complicated

    to make things simple just take your wheel off and look at the NSR bearing

    if its old go back to garage 1 and inform them they have replaced the wrong side

    if its new then garage 2 where just looking for work not realising that you had already had it done
     
  15. gc123

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 19 Dec 2002

    Posts: 1,434

    meaning i wondered if the 2nd garage mearly replaced old nut after install and and gave your new one back . then i noticed the grease so they either ran it up the thread or it is indeed the old nut that wasnt peened over.

    personally as andy said or just ask the garage maybe its a genuine mistake?
     
  16. rodenal

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Dec 2011

    Posts: 10,288

    I struggle with how a bearing gets installed improperly tbh (I'm sure it's technically possible but....you'd be going some), not properly securing the axle nut would be careless but more plausible imo.

    Best advice is as above, take the other wheel off and just look at the bearing it will be really obvious whether it's old or new.
     
  17. DB_SamX

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 17 Feb 2006

    Posts: 8,458

    Location: Winchester

    Update:

    Phoned garage 1 on Monday, giving them a brief reason I wanted to bring the car in, and did so yesterday morning. I explained in more detail to the manager there. He took the car to the back where I couldn't see. I told him I'd like to see the bearing assembly, but he said the garage didn't have the time to take it all apart and together again right now, as it would take a couple of hours (I know that's too long but fair enough, they did have other cars waiting.) So all he allowed was let me see that there was no sideways play in the wheel itself. I wasn't happy with just that and said I definitely wanted see the bearing assembly. I said that if I was wrong, then I'd happily pay for the wasted labour cost of taking the wheel off. The manager said he could only book the car in for that next week, which I accepted.

    I still left annoyed at not having a resolution straightaway, and decided to get another opinion, so took it to Kwik Fit not far away.

    The manager there kindly (and for free) lifted the car up, and we both inspected the the wheels from under the car. He showed me the bearing assembly's bolt heads from behind both rear wheels. The OSR bolt head had fresh scratch marks, consistent with having been worked on recently. The NSR bolt heads had no marks, suggesting it hasn't been touched in years. He also explained and showed me how to check if the bearing was fine or not: he asked me to put my finger on the shock springs whist he spun the wheels. The OSR spring didn't move at all, suggesting no issues with bearings. The NSR spring had some vibration in it, suggesting problem with bearings. In summary, he concluded that garage 2 was right - the NSR bearing hub hadn't been replaced recently. He said he deosn't recommend taking the wheel/pads/discs off to expose the assembly, as there would be evidence of "tamper" which garage 1 could use in their favour.

    So, now I wait till next week!

    I am wondering whether I should email garage 1 before I go in, just to make sure what I am expecting i.e. if I'm wrong I'll pay labour, but if they're wrong and screwed it up, I expect a brand new Toyota bearing assembly+nut installed at their cost. I will also want to see the work being done. What do you guys think?

    (I will give them a chance to make good, but not going there anymore.)


    Edit - by coincidence, the manager just phoned me and told me he spoke to the technician who did the work and they concluded they installed it on the wrong side. Result! He is going to phone garage 2 directly to find out about the what they found wrong.

    Edit 2 - manager of garage 1 has phoned again to apologise and admitted they got it wrong. They offered to refund me cost of parts+1h labour, or undertake the replacement at their cost. I decided to be kind and accept the latter, as they admitted to the error.
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2020
  18. pastymuncher

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 12 Jul 2005

    Posts: 19,402

    Location: Aberlour, NE Scotland

    Holy crap, a garage admitting they made a mistake!! That's a great result although they should have done the job correctly the first time so you wouldn't have had all this hassle.
     
  19. paradigm

    Caporegime

    Joined: 26 Aug 2003

    Posts: 36,988

    Location: Staffordshire

    Everyone makes mistakes from time to time, it’s how you deal with those mistakes which makes the difference. It would seem in this case that this is a garage that you actually can trust, I’d be happy to continue using them even with the mistake, seeing as they clearly care about making right their wrongs.
     
  20. Dangerous Dave

    Mobster

    Joined: 10 Oct 2006

    Posts: 3,404

    Shouldn't they also be covering the cost of work the second garage carried out. If they had fitted it correctly on the correct side you would not have needed to get the OSR bearing replaced.