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General Election 2015

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Stretch, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 18,525

    Location: Nordfriesland, Germany

    After four and a half years they've finally managed to squeeze out a level of growth equal to that they inherited. How is that getting the economy on the right track? Thanks to the coalition, our economy is in a markedly worse shape than it should have been.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  2. Sankari

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 24,754

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Oh wow, a massive 2 seats! I stand corrected. :D

    Even if they do, how will that make UKIP the third party of British politics? They need a hell of a lot more than 2 seats for that! Can't form a coalition government with just 2 seats.
     
  3. Xordium

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 8, 2009

    Posts: 12,702

    What economy are we talking about Mr Jack - the one the actual figures show or the one the Tories pretended existed whilst then blaming the previous government.
     
  4. Lytton

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 25, 2014

    Posts: 567

    It's quite literally amazing to see how many people think that the Labour party somehow single-handedly caused international recession, or at least forced a unique variation of it on the British Public. New Labour's biggest mistake was allowing the third way policy to progress unchecked. Everyone knew that when the 90s had hit, socialism had become virtually impossible to sell, particularly to newly emerging job sectors and communities with no major common employer. The individualist trend set in place during the Thatcher and Regan years has meant that nobody really gives a flying gibbon's arse about each other any more.

    Any way, market deregulation has spiralled out of control since the 80s, with both parties presiding over the generation of all sorts of daft financial products. Derivatives such as mortgage backed securities, default swaps, options and other ******** that most people neither understand nor care about have created a pretty unstable market sector, with risk shifting all over the place every time a bit of softball regulation is introduced here (or snipped back there). Not all of these derivatives appeared around this time, but they certainly became more dubious in nature, with their predatory overseers forgetting that no matter how much you smash an obligation in to tiny pieces and spread it over the world, it doesn't make it any safer, particularly when it is derived from some sub-standard, high interest mortgage dumped on financially vulnerable poor people in the USA.

    As I say, most people don't care about these things, economics is a pseudoscience minefield but the point is that all types of economics only 'work' if they are geared towards an ideological goal. So when politicians and economists say that a certain policy is 'working' or that a mathematical model proves that deregulation is 'working', what they really mean is that they are achieving strictly ideological aims. Economics isn't something that simply works if done in one correct way, it's not like a circuit that only works providing the basic components are arranged in one precise fashion. The conservatives are ideological just like the rest of the world, and their debt addiction and pro-austerity policy IS working, providing of course that our end-goals are the same as theirs. Labour and the Conservatives stood by whilst all sorts of detritus was spewing out of the financial sector, and guess how much of it was ever put to democratic referendum? And if we complain, well, all the big investment banks and wealth creators will take their business elsewhere, and so we're held to ransom. Like it or lump it.

    And how much policy now is geared towards making sure another recession doesn't happen? It has been forgotten. All attention, in all media PR and debate and party broadcast is geared towards meaningless soundbites such as 'fixing the economy' and 'mending broken britain'. What about making some serious changes to ensure this type of disaster doesn't happen again? To be fair, it needs to be done internationally; the world needs to change. Labour are too afraid to lurch to the left because they can't even count on their traditional support bases any more, and with business elite interests in mind, no sane right-winger would alienate their bankrolling buddies. One thing is for certain, doing a Russel Brand and sitting on our arses won't achieve dick. We need to vote, but vote for some new faces, and if it results in no clear majority and a hung parliament, then oh well. If we don't try then we won't know whether we had a chance, but voting for more austerity is only going to generate more bogus growth in the form of even poorer working contracts and further tax cuts for the wealthiest. Food Banks and charitable replacement will probably continue to grow. Is my rant ideological? You bet! But so is the Tories' spiel, don't be fooled for a second in to thinking their policy is based around some rational objective truth. Economics is a massive toilet! So have a go at flushing it before all the monetary **** spills out on to your vinyl tile floor.
     
  5. Lytton

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 25, 2014

    Posts: 567

    Haha, that video clip of Osborne recoiling in discomfort in front of his disciplinary panel over all his bogus defecit claims is priceless.
     
  6. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 1, 2014

    Posts: 10,470

    Location: Aberdeen

    We blame them because they had the ability to protect Britain and they did not.
     
  7. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 6,287

    This. Gordon Brown ran deficits in the very height of the boom to significantly increase the size of the public sector. When the wheels fell off we were poorly placed to deal with it. Our commitments had increased just as our ability to pay for them reduced. A more prudent Chancellor then PM would have run surpluses during tbe boom leaving spare income to compensate for a possible downturn. The timing of the bust maybe couldn't be predicted but it was not a surprise that it happened warning signs were there.
     
  8. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 18,525

    Location: Nordfriesland, Germany

    The debt-to-GDP was lower when the crisis hit than it was when New Labour took over in 1997. New Labour ran larger surpluses and for longer than the Tory government that proceeded them and they did it without flogging off anywhere near much of the nation's assets. Under Gordon's guidance we also entirely dodged a global recession in the early 2000s. Meanwhile the Tories continually called for changes that would have made things much worse, just months before the Credit Crunch hit, Dave and George were in the US praising the subprime mortgage sector and hectoring Labour to further deregulate the financial sector.

    There is a lot wrong with what New Labour did in power but two things are clearly true: (1) the deficit and debt problems spring principally from the global recession rather than from Labour policy and (2) had the Tories implemented the policies they advocated at the time things would have been much worse.
     
  9. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,923

    Location: Vvardenfell


    I love the way that you fail to mention why the wheels fell off. The principal blame that can be attached to Labour is not that they ran a bigger deficit, but that they allowed the banks to run off unchecked. I'll also casually mention that the economy was actually recovering before the last election, until the Tories and "austerity" put it back into recession again.
     
  10. Lytton

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 25, 2014

    Posts: 567

    They had the ability to reform the financial sector, but did not because growth seemed like a perpetual certainty.

    As a percentage, Britain had the lowest debt of the G7 countries.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_224167.pdf

    They inherited a debt of 42% GDP and left with a debt of 35%. The conservatives won't be quick to tell you how high their debt was during their last stint. The Deficit was inherited at 3.9% and was left at 2.1%.

    I'm no longer a labour supporter, Labour had the opportunity to enact democratic reforms, or at least put some things to referendum, but were too distracted by growth. BUT, the Conservatives are so much worse. No serious reform promised, cripplling austerity, poor quality jobs being created (and not uniformly throughout the country) and huge downards pressure on the NHS, with some sections already being chopped up and sold off to the private sector with abysmal consequences.

    The conservatives are ideologically comitted to shrinking public services, hence they're using financial turmoil to enact the cut-backs that they've been dying to push through for a long time. They then have the cheek to talk about 'big society' or some other such dribble as a fitting replacement. Many charities have already had their subsidies and contracts terminated, and with hunger on the rise it's not hard to see where this is going. Some services need developing and expanding, not shrinking. There is money out there, there are trillions of pounds being clung on to by the supposed wealth generators. The tax cuts have helped them rake in their profits, but they're under no onus to reinvest in any meaningful capacity. Don't believe Tory spin.
     
  11. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,733

    Lytton, personally I'm no fan of the tories but governments shouldn't fund charities. That money should come from willing donations IMHO, otherwise it's a shady paid for subcontract, nothing more.

    I'll be voting SNP, first time ever. I ordinarily vote Labour or Lib Dem but see no point in voting for either. Why SNP? They've actually done a reasonably good job in Scotland, I'm not talking about budget wise, more the way they conduct themselves in parliament and our local SNP MSP is very good, I'd like to see our MP switch from labour to SNP now.
     
  12. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 24,815

    Anything to rid ourselves of the labour administrative councils would be splendid, they ruin everything.
     
  13. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 26, 2009

    Posts: 20,897

    I hope so, But I doubt it because people in general are stupid and if their paper tells them everything wrong today is Cameron's fault most will believe it, even if Miliband as PM looks even worse than Kinnock!


    Doubtful, they may get a couple but no meaningful number, remember with our system it's not votes that count its votes per area, you can get almost half the votes in the country but still get no seats because you narrowly lost every one. What UKIP's recent popularity is most likely to do is convert into Labour seats by stealing Tory votes.


    Hopefully as that's looking like the only way we will dodge a Labour majority.


    Probably, but not seats.


    Sadly yes it seems so, which is sad as Clegg didn't fail anybody it was his voters who failed him. He had two choices, either sit in opposition for five years and waste every vote he received, or take office and attempt to counter some of the crazier Tory ideas and push LibDem policy through. He took the latter, and his voters hated him, for doing what was in their best interest lol.


    Not at all, it's still a two horse race but now the are two other horses slowing down the good ones not just one.


    Nope, the LibDems don't have the clout to force that out of a Tory/Labour heavy coalition (or they would have) and UKIP don't because their policies on all of those are the same as the Tories.
     
  14. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 12,128

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    And the SNP? Labour [ed] are so desperate for power, I can see them doing something stupid.
     
  15. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 24,815

    Plan B: English Independence :D
     
  16. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    We must see things very differently because that's my biggest objection to them!

    I always think it is hard to balance the desire for a government of a particular colour vs the individual representative.

    My MP is Alistair Darling and I was never his greatest fan in Westminster and don't want to see Labour win, but he is very good on local issues. Meanshile our conservative councillor is good, but sits on planning so can't speak publicly on our planning problems, the Labour guy just isn't on the planet and all the SNP guy can do is trot out the party line again and again and again.

    So I don't have a blinking clue who to vote for, but the seat is relatively safe Labour after they changed the boundaries in 2005 so it probably doesn't matter anyway. Cue "not getting the government I voted for" argument...
     
  17. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    It's still Scottish independence, but based on annoying the English so much that they kick us out.

    And sadly Jim Murphy (in an attempt to pull some back from the SNP) is helping them.
     
  18. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 26, 2009

    Posts: 20,897

    I doubt they would TBH, don't forget, the LibDems approached Labour for a coalition first then went the the Tories after Labour shot it down, Labour had the chance to stay in power in 2010 but passed because they didn't want to take the flak for fixing their mess. I doubt they would make a deal to get into power which would vilify them in power and result in a dead set 2020 loss.
     
  19. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,981

    Enjoy your Tory government.
     
  20. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 12,128

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    An alliance with the SNP might be Labours only chance to reshape the political system in a mould that benefits them.

    If the SNP are the dominant force in Scottish politics, and the Tory's introduce English votes for English laws, where does that leave the Labour party?

    The need to do something, because there is currently a serious possibility of them becoming an irrelevance.