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Poll: General Election 2019 voting intention - Nov 1st - 14th

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Rilot, Nov 5, 2019.

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Who will you vote for?

  1. Labour

    95 vote(s)
    22.6%
  2. Conservative

    104 vote(s)
    24.8%
  3. Liberal Democrat

    162 vote(s)
    38.6%
  4. SNP

    19 vote(s)
    4.5%
  5. Green

    7 vote(s)
    1.7%
  6. Brexit

    15 vote(s)
    3.6%
  7. UKIP

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  8. TIG

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Plaid Cymru

    2 vote(s)
    0.5%
  10. DUP

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  11. Sinn Fein

    2 vote(s)
    0.5%
  12. Independant

    3 vote(s)
    0.7%
  13. Other party

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  14. Spoil ballot

    8 vote(s)
    1.9%
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  1. danlightbulb

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 14, 2005

    Posts: 3,249

    I am more than happy that my taxes contribute to a disabled person in genuine need and unable to care for themselves due to their condition. It does however require an assessor to be very well trained and able to see through lies, of which there are loads and I see it all the time particularly in the area i live in.

    The problem fundamentally is there are a group of people who through their own choices will never contribute to society. We should really send those people to work in labour camps or something because its all they will ever be good for.

    The system does not allow this of course, so those in genuine need suffer.
     
  2. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,377

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    It doesn't undermine my point at all.

    Again your fixated but missing the point, the actual voting is over, its causing significant social division, its a wound that has to be started to be fixed. Whilst remain is the best option its also a significant issue in itself.

    The fact its the status quo is irrelevant really. Views on whether change should be performed on a majority position, or a super majority position are personal bias.

    What I would argue is it should always be evolution and not revolution since failure to perform the first will normally end in the second, exactly what has happened with Brexit.
    What Boris is delivering is somewhere in the middle, IMO failure to deliver anything at all will mean the next wave of revolution would be harder and significantly more damaging, it could well be someone like farage getting in and enacting his fabled clean break.
     
  3. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,466

    Location: London

    So if you believe you are surrounded by "loads" of liars and benefits cheats, are we to assume that you have the relevant skills and knowledge to assess these people and know they are lying?

    Are you serious about labour camps or just trolling for a reaction?
     
  4. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,782

    Arbeit macht frei!
     
  5. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,040

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    The impact of people gaming the system in the way you've described is not so great (or anywhere near so) that it's responsible for people with genuine need suffering. That's what the Tories and the tabloid media would like you to believe though, as it means they can blame the devastating impact of their austerity measures on "them there benefit cheats". Take a look at funding for local government over the last 10 years or so and then have a think about what that means for social care services for instance.
     
  6. danlightbulb

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 14, 2005

    Posts: 3,249

    Actually I am serious. Some people are genuinely scum. And that sounds horrible but its true. I see alot of it where i live, Ive grown up with it so yes I can recognise the outward signs as can most of us I would think. Sometimes its not their fault directly, poor upbringing for example, but still the best thing for many of these people (who are fundamentally unable to progress their own lives productively) would be to force them to perform a non-skilled function. It would give them something to do and help them become productive. Conscription is still alive in many countries and does a similar thing.

    The current system, our culture and our laws, means we have to help people who dont really deserve it. That is unfortunate and a big burden on all of us, not just from welfare but also all local services that they take from but dont contribute into.
     
  7. JRS

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 6, 2004

    Posts: 15,121

    Location: Burton-on-Trent

    Remain is the plaster cast on the broken leg. You're gonna look plenty stupid for a while, but you'll get back to normal in a reasonable timeframe.

    A soft Brexit is that same broken leg with a splint and bandage. Going to be tougher to deal with, but eventually things will solidify. Might not be in quite the same shape as before though.

    A hard Brexit is that same broken leg with some witch doctor dancing around chanting "Brexit means Brexit". Still going to look stupid to the rest of the world, highly unlikely to fix the busted leg in any kind of reasonable timeframe.

    A no deal Brexit is the witch doctor deciding that the only way to fix the broken leg is to cut off your head. You're not going to care much about the broken leg after that, so mission accomplished eh?
     
  8. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,112

    The problem is the Govt are using unqualified people with the aim of denying people benefit. We have all read about the sick person declared fit only to die within a month. If, as you claim "
    I take it you have sent this info to the necessary authorities. There are people who outwardly may look fit but have mental health problems.
     
  9. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,112

    Good diagnosis:p;):p
     
  10. danlightbulb

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 14, 2005

    Posts: 3,249

    Its circular. Years without work makes a person outwardly odd and unemployable. Do some of the people i see have mental heath issues, absolutely they do but unfortunately its of their own (or their parents) making. There is no helping a 50 year old who has never worked and whose parents never worked.

    What if a person cannot work, or even walk, because they are morbidly obese by their own making. Do they deserve to get funded to continue this lifestyle, and to tie up huge NHS resources in their old age?

    What if you have a repeat petty criminal/troublemaker who has fathered 4 kids by the local bike and hangs around other more respectable people's property drinking carling at 9 am? Should these people get benefits?

    We cant cut any of these people off because they'd either die or turn to more crime. They and us are locked in to the arrangement.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  11. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 22,092

    Location: London

    Tories going to Tory....
    Their talking point for further privatisation of the NHS? Corbyn trying to override Brexit. Jesus Christ - we are sleepwalking into a disastrous 5 years. The things that they can defend with confidence is making our rivers ******* cleaner and shooting in the countryside.

    Edit - read the document and it does delve more into their defences. I just don't believe any of it when it comes to the NHS.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  12. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,112

    I would say the situation you have described would be very rare(outside the Mail/Express). Would you like to work beside someone who may throw a wobbly at any time(especially if your work depended on their work). If they have health issues they need treated.
     
  13. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 12,207

    Are you a PIP assessor? You sound like a lovely individual.
     
  14. danlightbulb

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 14, 2005

    Posts: 3,249

    No but I see this stuff daily where i live. Go to any run down town centre in the daytime and youll see it too. Go to any gp surgery and youll see it.
     
  15. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,112

    The decisions coming from the next group of politicians will shape the country for decades, if only five years then it would not be disastrous.
     
  16. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,112

    What qualifications do you have to make these judgements.
     
  17. ltron

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 30, 2014

    Posts: 2,029

    The fraud rate is less than 1% and the fact you and many others 'see' so many fraudsters is a real problem as it causes the 99% of genuine claimants to suffer to the point where someone who looks like an Auschwitz victim is declared fit for work and has to discharge themselves from hospital in order to fight their case against medical advice. Thankfully that person won their case but should never have been put through it and died weeks later, fit for work my posterior. The appeals success rate is over 70% last time I checked, is that a just and fair system that is working well?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society...e-for-telling-seriously-ill-man-to-find-a-job
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/22/stephen-smith-benefits-system-dying
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  18. danlightbulb

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 14, 2005

    Posts: 3,249

    First hand experience. I grew up in a very run down area and ive seen this behaviour from many acquaintences my whole life.

    One example of someone I know. Never worked, is totally unemployable, deliberately gets a taxi to any assessments because he knows if he is seen ariving on the bus it will make him appear more capable. Does this person deserve to be supported? Background of a family who never worked, never did anything at school. There is no helping him. Fortunately he has no children to continue this heritage.

    Too late now, but in his youth he could have been productive in a non skilled role under supervision.


    I dont want to see genuine people suffer, i want to see an alternative to lifetime benefit support where there is one, even if its only a small percentage because it sends the wrong message.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  19. ltron

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 30, 2014

    Posts: 2,029

    You must have quite some skills to be able to assess people with a mere glance.
     
  20. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,466

    Location: London

    What outward signs do you mean? Criminal behaviour? Anti-social behaviour? If so, we have laws. Something else? If so, who gets to decide who is "scum" and who is "unproductive" and in need of being rounded up and put in labour camps or conscripted? You? Or someone sanctioned by you (better to not have it on your own conscience eh)?

    Labour camps, or any kind of 'unpaid work scheme' that isn't clearly training are essentially slavery. Perhaps if you're not comfortable with the term "slavery" you can always dress it up with a term like "workhouse" to make it slightly more palatable I guess?

    Mandatory military service is not used in most European countries and where it is it's not used in the way you seem to be suggesting. A professional modern army really has no need of a load of people with mental health, physical health or significant behavioural issues.

    You clearly have all the skills needed to be a benefits assessor :rolleyes: Yes years without work cause all sorts of problems for people getting back into work, but it's not impossible if you treat people with respect and give them a genuine opportunity, rather than force them to work for benefits (rather than a proper wage) or an unpaid work scheme thinly disguised as back to work training.

    So what do you propose? Cut off their benefits and starve the obesity away? Conscript them so they can 'run it off'? Besides, many people on benefits struggle to afford to eat enough to maintain a normal weight, so it's hard to imagine the volume of food needed to become morbidly obese being funded by a benefits lifestyle alone. Especially not with the ease and frequency of being benefits sanctioned. Seems like feverish tabloid imagination on your part that these people are all getting fat on benefits.
     
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