1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Poll: General Election 2019 voting intention - Nov 1st - 14th

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Rilot, Nov 5, 2019.

?

Who will you vote for?

  1. Labour

    95 vote(s)
    22.6%
  2. Conservative

    104 vote(s)
    24.8%
  3. Liberal Democrat

    162 vote(s)
    38.6%
  4. SNP

    19 vote(s)
    4.5%
  5. Green

    7 vote(s)
    1.7%
  6. Brexit

    15 vote(s)
    3.6%
  7. UKIP

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  8. TIG

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Plaid Cymru

    2 vote(s)
    0.5%
  10. DUP

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  11. Sinn Fein

    2 vote(s)
    0.5%
  12. Independant

    3 vote(s)
    0.7%
  13. Other party

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  14. Spoil ballot

    8 vote(s)
    1.9%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    I've been involved in many private projects; projects worth £100's of millions that have done precisely that.

    I'm unsure why you would subscribe those attributes exclusively to public ones.

    What are you basing this on?
     
  2. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    That's a fair concern. And is probably the only one that I immediately identified myself; there is the potential for an increased likelihood of abuse.

    Although it's worth noting that a lack of nationalised internet does not appear to have hindered states that are that way inclined to date.

    If anything, one could argue that the 'wild-west-esque' aspect of the internet has given rise to, and encouraged precisely this sort of thing itself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  3. rare

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 1, 2002

    Posts: 6,614

    Name a single large scale state project that was delivered on time and within budget...
     
  4. rare

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 1, 2002

    Posts: 6,614

    It sure makes it a heck of a lot easier for the state when they decide they want to enforce x or y. It’s a slippery slope IMO.
     
  5. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,820

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Because I've done the same on the public side. So we agree large infrastructure projects all run over budget and over time regardless is they are public or private

    Ergo my statement that this would overrun time and budget wise would be correct. Except the get out of jail card would be the money printing press
     
  6. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,095

    Location: Cornwall

    Does it have to be this country? :p

    What we are notoriously bad with is giving big public contracts to private firms. We're terrible at public/private partnerships.

    I don't think it's fair to say that every state enterprise is a guaranteed failure. But we really do get screwed over when the public sector tries to interface with the private sector, a lot of the time.
     
  7. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    I was explicitly involved in the roll-out of 300 Tesco stores, each with a turnover in excess of £1 million per week. We were on time and within budget.

    I'm not certain what this has to do with anything however.
     
  8. rare

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 1, 2002

    Posts: 6,614

    That wasn’t delivered by the state though was it :p
     
  9. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    No I don't agree to that. In my experience, some do and some don't.

    I'm questioning the assertion made that says that because something is public, it will therefore be "over budget and over time".

    So far, I see no good reason to make that connection, although I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.

    Regardless, having made a positive claim, the burden of proof would be on those making the claim.

    That's why I'm asking for evidence. Not because I think you're wrong; but because taking your word on the matter without good reason, absolutely would be wrong.
     
  10. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,820

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Ok now imagine the project is being run by some civil servants that doesnt specialise in the actual project. Now imagine there's no accountability on the amount of money spent.

    I've literally been on projects where 1M worth of kit has been ditched for a quid because the gov dept has decided it wants another brand that week and doesn't want to pay the storage costs. Following that decisions that flip flop on a weekly basis or no decision at all. The private companies just charge them for all the time wasted
     
  11. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    No. But i'm trying to understand why you are automatically attributing failure, overrunning, and overspending, exclusively to state run projects; when we have so many examples of state run industries that are significantly more efficient and profitable than private ones.

    Again, i'm not saying you're wrong, but I genuinely don't see the logical justification for your instant dismissal. Can you effectively argue that the American Health insurance model is better than the British one for instance?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  12. rare

    Soldato

    Joined: Nov 1, 2002

    Posts: 6,614

    The logic is based on repeated historic precedent. What examples of state run industry to we have in this country that are more efficient and profitable? It’s no good comparing them to another country whose systems and politics vary so wildly.
     
  13. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    I've had a single store out of the 300+ I was responsible for, ditch significantly more than £1 million worth of "kit". I genuinely don't see why these sorts of problems are being exclusively laid at the foot of nationalised industries.

    In my experience, they go on everywhere.
     
  14. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,820

    Location: Bristol, UK

    We so we need to take your word because you said so and provided one example..... Ok then

    https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects#

    I'm sure there's the odd project that's been fine but it's an exception
     
  15. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,820

    Location: Bristol, UK

    I expect your company recycled that kit through reuse and didn't just burn the cash though. This lot wanted it off the books and the company I worked for took it off their hands for £1. And that was 1m in tax payers money

    Also what's with the my projects are bigger than yours rubbish.. pick any big ticket project and let us know hows that's going... HS2? Crossrail2? That new nuclear power station, those lovely aircraft carriers....
     
  16. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    I think that's a very fair analysis, and kind of what I've been alluding to here.

    There are a number of excellent examples of state run industries that are significantly more profitable and efficient than our private counterparts. Sometimes this is only for the simple fact that they do not have to report to, and pay dividends to, shareholders.

    Let's be clear, I would accurately be described as a free marketer, I believe in competition; but what I will never do is allow ideology to trump evidence.

    Demonstrate why the private model is best for a particular industry and i'll defend it to the hilt; but I do not believe it's the right model for everything.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  17. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but quoting the taxpayers alliance doesn't really help your argument. I would urge you to put forward another source.

    Surely you understand who they are, and you understand the Tufton street links right?

    Regardless, while I don't think that dismissing evidence based only upon the source is wise; by quoting them, what you've done is the equivalent of quoting the BNP manifesto to argue against immigration.

    In a nutshell; I'm not convinced by the evidence. Particularly when it contradicts the studies from reputable academic and economic institutions that I was exposed to throughout my education.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  18. TJM

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 10, 2007

    Posts: 2,277

    Can you name any private sector project of comparable complexity or national importance? I'd be genuinely interested to know of like-for-like comparisons between the public and private sector. Problems with projects that the private sector could never deliver tell us nothing about how efficient it is compared to the public sector.
     
  19. GAC

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 11, 2004

    Posts: 3,780

    ignoring the costs for a moment, who in their right mind thinks we can trust any government to be our isp without someone eventually getting caught looking through someones online life for gain, just imagine some of the militant idiots in all partys looking up people to see if they are worthy in their political views to work for them, like what happened with the unions and builders in the 70's and 80s where people got stuck in a book and barred from work.

    i just dont trust out political idiots to not screw this up royally one way or another. is what we have perfect no, but compared to whatever state run isp labour comes up with its probably vastly superior.

    and dont forget one of corbyns summer holidays was to east germany while everyone else was trying to get out, maybe he took some notes from the stasi.
     
  20. GordyR

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 4,944

    Location: Essex

    Now that is a fair argument against it. It's definitely a concern I share.

    Although I suppose given how readily our data is currently sold to 3rd parties by private companies, perhaps that ship has long sailed?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.