German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'

Moothead2 said:
Lol, being called ignorant by someone who believes in a sky pixie.
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Your just showing your ignorance again :D

Like i said the only people complaining are those of you who have not been circumcised :D What does that say, do you feel inadequate?

edit: i deleted the original ignorant part as i miss read something/
 
Moothead2 said:
Lol, being called ignorant by someone who believes in a sky pixie.
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Don't mess with the sky pixie, he's hard as nails.

2 Kings 2:23-24

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
 
I know more than one person who is very very unhappy about having been circumcised at birth. Surely it would be best to eliminate all possible chances of people being unhappy by letting them choose themselves.
 
I'd like to ask religious people a question.

If God told you to kill your child would you?

If the answer's no then why follow his rules on circumcision, if the answer's yes then I'd suggest you see reassess your position or see a psychiatrist.
 
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Craterloads said:
Now that you agree there are medical benifts it boils down to the indvidual parents if they think the procedure is worthy or not for the said benifits (however miniscule you feel they are) Along the lines of having scar inducing vaccine jabs as a baby (regardless of how great/miniscule you feel the benifits are) In your opinion the numbers dont provide a mandatory reason, lets be clear on that.
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I never denied that there were medical benefits. A vaccine jab is not only for the good of that specific child but also for the good of those around them as has been evidenced by recent outbreaks of whooping cough in the states which has been caused by parents refusing to get immunisations. The statistical advantages of circumcision when placed alongside other illnesses that a child could potentially develop drop to minuscule numbers. My reason for pointing this out is that it becomes a nonsense preventative measure unless you are prepared to carry out a whole host of other operations with the same statistically based arguments. Otherwise you have to accept that it is not a relevant reason.

Whats the point discussing religion with people who are athiest and find religion illogical? Anyhow as a way of identification and belonging to that paticular faith. islam also describes the medical benifits of said procedure, as is proven my modern science. IF the billions of people that have had circumcision done as an infants were complaining in any significant number, let just say 5% of them, then you would have a point. But that is not the case, i have never come accross anyone who regrets having it done as an infant. Quite contrary, you will find people who have had it done as an adult for religious reasons and they wish they had it done as an infant ;)
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So you have talked to quite a few people about their penises have you? Your opinion is anecdotal and as such doesn't stand up with much weight. Not trying to be insulting, just stating the fact of it.

Islam does not state the medical benefits of it as these were not discovered and documented till quite recent history. Islam practices circumcision on infants for a couple of reasons. 1. Because it's easier on an infant and 2. For perceived hygiene reasons. The other reasons are based around religious belief and a believe have basis in the Prophet Muhammad circumcising himself at the age of 80 with an axe... No disrespect to your religion but to me (much like many translations of the Bible) there appear to be come liberties taken based on convenience rather than following in the footsteps of the specifics.

My issue with religion is not with people choosing to believe it, but in the choice to then use that religion to judge others and directly effect the lives of others in negative ways. To me religion should be a personal and private thing that, if you chose to develop that belief, it should be done when you have the capacity to understand your reasoning. Being force fed it from birth and being told that this is the way it has to be, for me, is wrong.

It always comes down to the question for me, who is right? Islam? Christianity, Buddhists?
 
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estebanrey said:
I'd like to ask religious people a question.

If God told you to kill your child would you?

If the answer's no then why follow his rules of circumcision, if the answer's yes then I'd suggest you see reassess your position or a psychiatrist.
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What a stupid question, does not even warrant a reply :rolleyes:

Lol athiests (sorry)
 
Craterloads said:
Like i said the only people complaining are those of you who have not been circumcised :D What does that say, do you feel inadequate?
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There are three types of people who are circumcised;

1) Those done at birth/infancy - They don't know any better since they don't remember what it's like to have one. They've been brought up to believe it's God idea and what not and so won't have any problems with it although there will be a few who are unhappy (See above).

2) Those who do it later in life for religion reasons - They're going to complain about something they CHOSE to have done? I don't think so.

3) Those who had it done for medical reasons - Well they're not going to complain either.

If I felt inadequate, I'd have it done myself. You see, I have that option ;).
 
SteveOBHave said:
I never denied that there were medical benefits. A vaccine jab is not only for the good of that specific child but also for the good of those around them as has been evidenced by recent outbreaks of whooping cough in the states which has been caused by parents refusing to get immunisations. The statistical advantages of circumcision when placed alongside other illnesses that a child could potentially develop drop to minuscule numbers. My reason for pointing this out is that it becomes a nonsense preventative measure unless you are prepared to carry out a whole host of other operations with the same statistically based arguments. Otherwise you have to accept that it is not a relevant reason.
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Again this is just your opinion, let be clear on that. Circumcision also protects those around you, by limiting the spread of various diseases, women in general would benifit from male circumcision. Its not though, such a minor 30 sec procedure cant be compared to others, as i discussed with zenf1 earlier regarding tonsils.


So you have talked to quite a few people about their penises have you? Your opinion is anecdotal and as such doesn't stand up with much weight. Not trying to be insulting, just stating the fact of it.
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Quite a lot actally, my mate had his done in his teens as he was born with a heart condition and wasnt safe to do it then. It was the talk of the town then. my point being 37% of the entire male population are circumcised, where are the millions that are complaining? there are no poles or anything to suggest this, no evidence apart from a handful of isolated cases. Its only non circumcised people who have an issue :(


Islam does not state the medical benefits of it as these were not discovered and documented till quite recent history. Islam practices circumcision on infants for a couple of reasons. 1. Because it's easier on an infant and 2. For perceived hygiene reasons. The other reasons are based around religious belief and a believe have basis in the Prophet Muhammad circumcising himself at the age of 80 with an axe... No disrespect to your religion but to me (much like many translations of the Bible) there appear to be come liberties taken based on convenience rather than following in the footsteps of the specifics
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.

I meant for hygiene whan i stated medical benfits. The rest of yor statement is factually incorrect, so no point even discussing.

My issue with religion is not with people choosing to believe it, but in the choice to then use that religion to judge others and directly effect the lives of other in negative ways. To me religion should be a personal and private thing that, if you chose to develop that belief, it should be done when you have the capacity to understand your reasoning. Being force fed it from birth and being told that this is the way it has to be, for me, is wrong.

It always comes down to the question for me, who is right? Islam? Christianity, Buddhists?
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Thats your opinion and i respect it, but like i answered your yesterdays post, raising your child as an athiest is doing the exact same as people raising their children into religion. Your chiild will likely be athiest because you deprived him of religion.

Whats more personal than your family/children?
 
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Moothead2 said:
There are three types of people who are circumcised;

1) Those done at birth/infancy - They don't know any better since they don't remember what it's like to have one. They've been brought up to believe it's God idea and what not and so won't have any problems with it although there will be a few who are unhappy (See above).

2) Those who do it later in life for religion reasons - They're going to complain about something they CHOSE to have done? I don't think so.

3) Those who had it done for medical reasons - Well they're not going to complain either.

If I felt inadequate, I'd have it done myself. You see, I have that option ;).
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See what above? So effectively no body or barely anybody is complaining apart for non circumcised people, which effectively you have just confirmed?

What are circumcised people missing out on that they should complain? apart from not being able to urinate in a straight line :D
 
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estebanrey said:
Why is it a stupid question? Is it because you can't answer it without either admitting you wouldn't follow God's rules come what may or looking insane?
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jesus, you have issues :D If you cant fathom why thats a stupid question then you athiests (although i doubt your views are respective) have issues.

What are you going to ask next, if god told you to become a vampire and stuff cheese into your ears? :p
 
Craterloads said:
Again this is just your opinion, let be clear on that. Circumcision also protects those around you, by limiting the spread of various diseases, women in general would benifit from male circumcision. Its not though, such a minor 30 sec procedure can be compared to others, as i discussed with zenf1 earlier regarding tonsils.
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Abstinence protects even more, Islam preaches abstinence for those who aren't married.




I meant for hygiene whan i stated medical benfits. The rest of yor statement is factually incorrect, so no point even discussing.
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The hygiene argument is nonsense, it only applies to people who don't wash. Dirty tramps are dirty! Shock horror!



Thats your opinion and i respect it, but like i answered your yesterdays post, raising your child as an athiest is doing the exact same as people raising their children into religion. Your chiild will likely be athiest because you deprived him of religion.
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What he's getting at is that people (like yourself) tend to be a particular religion simply because of their parents. You, or T345 for example, wouldn't be Muslims if it weren't for your parents exposing you to it.
 
Craterloads said:
See what above? So effectively no body or barely anybody is complaining apart for non circumcised people, which effectively you have just confirmed?

What are circumcised people missing out on that they should complain? apart from not being able to urinate in a straight line :D
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You do know that foreskins can be retracted, right? *facepalm*
 
spoffle said:
Abstinence protects even more, Islam preaches abstinence for those who aren't married.
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And? Fruits taste better than vegetables.


The hygiene argument is nonsense, it only applies to people who don't wash. Dirty tramps are dirty! Shock horror!
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So all people who have diseases are dirty? Anyone whos cought an STD is dirty?


What he's getting at is that people (like yourself) tend to be a particular religion simply because of their parents. You, or T345 for example, wouldn't be Muslims if it weren't for your parents exposing you to it.
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Your prejudices against religion are not my concern :rolleyes: You potential athiest kids would more likely not be athiests if you had taught them religion?

You do know that foreskins can be retracted, right? *facepalm*
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Missed the point (facepalm)
 
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