Golden Eagles could be returning to Snowdonia.

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All of the things I mentioned are common knowledge. I'm not even saying anything controversial.

Farmers are in favour of culling multiple species of wild animals because of the suspicion that it spreads diseases to cattle. Despite a complete lack of scientific consensus that it would make any difference. They do kill wildlife for a whole variety of reasons, including so-called "sport".

They are against all reintroductions of extinct British species. Everything from beavers to birds to prey, lynx, etc - farmers have opposed all of those proposals. They don't exactly hide that fact. They're quite happy to appear on CountryFile (etc) voicing their disapproval at any scheme that they don't like.

They do have power - like you said they are often landowners - and they are highly unionised. They (like other big business) continually lobby the government and have the power to influence policy. Especially on the environment, where their lobbying directly influences the government's environment policies.

Complete and utter tripe and once again blanket accusations from someone who clearly holds a grudge or is just completely clueless (Probably both).

No otherwise I would have posted links. However you seem completely unwilling to accept the facts so I'm instructing you how you can go about obtaining some.

Please state your "facts" clearly. As from where i was standing it was all baseless opinion with no evidence.
 
Caporegime
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First Google result (remember how I told you to use it earlier?).

"However, as conservationists have celebrated this success, farmers and crofters have countered with claims sea eagles are responsible for killing hundreds of lambs."

"Sea eagles were declared extinct in 1918, following persecution by farmers and gamekeepers."

https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ser-beams-sea-eagles-lambs-rspb-a8145421.html
 
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Thread is about Golden Eagles and the point you made was regarding Kites.

Here's a picture to make things a little easier for you.

2rvzrzq.jpg
2rvzrzq.jpg
 
Caporegime
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Thread is about Golden Eagles and the point you made was regarding Kites.

Here's a picture to make things a little easier for you.

2rvzrzq.jpg
2rvzrzq.jpg

Aw did you not like the fact that I proved you wrong so now you're trying to be a pedant? You understand the argument is against birds of prey in general, particularly large ones, right?

More links for you...


https://www.scottishspca.org/newsroom/latest-news/farmer-convicted-of-shooting-buzzard/

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2012/0...for-the-poisoning-of-glen-orchy-golden-eagle/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...coastguards-spotted-chasing-birds-fields.html
 
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Soldato
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well you could argue the eradication of keystone species/apex predators (eagles, wolves) is far more detrimental - just look at the state of deer in Scotland. there was a recent report that reintroducing wolves to one of the US parks had a massively more harmonising effect than any human attempts. reintroducing those keystone species should not even be an arguable point, IMO.

+1

A month or so ago i was watching a tv series about the reintroduction of Wolves into Yellowstone nation park. The reintroduction actually started many years ago now, and the wolf numbers have grown massively but have stabilised now because of the area they have available to them.
The most interesting part of the series though was the relationship between the wolves and the mountain lions (Cougers). Before the wolf reintroduction, couger numbers were slowly dropping. Since the wolves reintroduction they have steadily risen. The reason for this is that both wolves and Cougers are Apex preditors they do hunt and kill each other. It was thought by scientists doing the study that Couger numbers would actually drop, not rise. It turns out after years of study and loads of tv footage that a single Couger can wipe out 2 to 3 Wolves in a wolf attack. If a whole pack of Wolves attack a single Couger in the open, then the Couger stands no chance. Apex preditors are an absolute must have for a natural balance in nature.
 
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Aw did you not like the fact that I proved you wrong so now you're trying to be a pedant? You understand the argument is against birds of prey in general, particularly large ones, right?

More links for you...

No you tried to turn it about birds of prey in general and not specifically to the golden eagle like the title of this thread after you made a silly comment about the kite.

You where trying to make it a broad sweeping accusation against all livestock farmers.

I have stated the release of the Golden Eagle would not bother me, in fact i support it. I am a 4th generation livestock farmer on both side's (particularly sheep) within the region of the potential release zone.

You're now just trying to point score because i mentioned that big chip on your shoulder. :rolleyes:
 
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No you tried to turn it about birds of prey in general and not specifically to the golden eagle like the title of this thread after you made a silly comment about the kite.

You where trying to make it a broad sweeping accusation against all livestock farmers.

I have stated the release of the Golden Eagle would not bother me, in fact i support it. I am a 4th generation livestock farmer on both side's (particularly sheep) within the region of the potential release zone.

You're now just trying to point score because i mentioned that big chip on your shoulder. :rolleyes:

Stick to farming mate, clearly the understanding of the English language is beyond you. Time seems to be a struggle too since the first quote about birds in general came before the quote about kites. Which you'll notice has the awesome words such as before it implying it's just one example.

Considering how often birds turn up poisoned or just disappear up here it's logical.

Because they're convinced species such as red kite are a threat to their lambs.
 
Soldato
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I have stated the release of the Golden Eagle would not bother me, in fact i support it. I am a 4th generation livestock farmer on both side's (particularly sheep) within the region of the potential release zone.

Fair play to you, Wilber. I have family who farm in Ffestiniog and on the Lleyn and they feel the same way. There are bound to be exceptions but I'm hopeful that this could work.
 
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Attack the man and not the ball :D

Funnily enough not everyone’s first language in wales is English but i guess you wouldn’t realise that.

According to you're narrative I should be heading out with a shotgun and some poison round about now. /golfclap
 
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Fair play to you, Wilber. I have family who farm in Ffestiniog and on the Lleyn and they feel the same way. There are bound to be exceptions but I'm hopeful that this could work.

It would be a hell of a sight to see one in the wild around here.

I remember when I was about 9 my father and I where up on the hill feeding sheep and we spotted a very large bird which had become stuck. My father ran over and covered it with his coat whilst he freed it. We took a picture of it before releasing it as it was quite unusual (very large).

We got quite excited when we thought it was a golden eagle, turns out it was a very big common buzzard. Still quite the sight and a memory I’ll cherish.
 
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Complete and utter tripe and once again blanket accusations
It's not tripe and they aren't accusations.

If I could be bothered I could find countless instances of all those things.

In fact it would be so trivial it really ins't worth doing, any more than finding a mathematical paper proving 2+2=4 from first principles.

You may as well say it's "tripe" that the Earth orbits the Sun.

Now I wonder... are you against a lynx reintroduction? Wolves? Eagles? Other predators that once lived in the UK?

Beavers? Etc.

Do you believe that wildlife can spread diseases to cattle? Are you pro badger culling?

Have you ever killed wildlife to protect your own interests? Or for profit/sport?

I doubt you can honestly answer too many of those without proving my point.
 
Soldato
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It would be a hell of a sight to see one in the wild around here.

I remember when I was about 9 my father and I where up on the hill feeding sheep and we spotted a very large bird which had become stuck. My father ran over and covered it with his coat whilst he freed it. We took a picture of it before releasing it as it was quite unusual (very large).

We got quite excited when we thought it was a golden eagle, turns out it was a very big common buzzard. Still quite the sight and a memory I’ll cherish.

Yes, I'm sure. Moments like that are priceless when growing up. It's a pity there's so much anti-farmer/farming sentiment around and all farmers - the vast majority of which are decent, hard-working folk - get tarred with the same brush.

Anyway, let's look forward to these Eagles. :)
 
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I was wondering how long it would take to start farmer bashing. You really need to get that shoulder checked out before that arm falls off.

I think you’re the one with the chip there. That is unfortunately the reality for a fair chunk of the UK. Assuming you’re a farmer, it may not be the case for you, but poisoning/killing of birds of prey and other predators is prevalent throughout the UK, predominantly carried out by farmers and game keepers.

The reality is these birds are being reintroduced because of the historic persecution from farmers.

It’s not just farmers however, but they are the group that have the most clout and the industry that do the most environmental damage in the UK. Whenever there’s a request for reintroduction of a species of wildlife invariably the NUF will pipe up, along with other special interest groups (angling societies are another prime one - for example the reintroduction of beavers).

Farming is no different to any other major industry. People make a profit from exploiting nature, and prefer to reduce possible causes of lost profit. Too many people have this romantic view of the smallholder with a few acres, that’s rarely the case any more because they went out of business years ago.

(Replied so late because I was on holiday for a few weeks).

Edit: And as for the kite and bird theory, while there may be some connection between the increas in Kites and some reduction in small birds, I propose another theory:

The fall in bird numbers is not related to an increase in kite numbers (which are still going to be below their historic numbers) but due to the same cause drastically reducing songbird numbers throughout the western world. Modern farming techniques.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/relay.n...rds-declines-agriculture-environnment-science

In fact, France's story has repeated itself across the industrialized world. In the U.K., farmland bird populations have collapsed by more than half since 1970, with much of the crash occurring by the 1980s. Since 1980, Europe's total farmland-bird population shrunk by 300 million birds. And in Canada and the United States, 74 percent of farmland bird species shrank in number from 1966 to 2013.

But since the 1960s, agriculture's “green revolution” has dramatically reshaped how we grow food. In the industrialized world, croplands have transformed into mechanically sculpted monocultures, nourished with fertilizers and protected with herbicides and insecticides.

Perhaps you should look closer to home and be honest with yourself. Farming is an environmentally damaging exploitative industry.

Btw I also work in an environmentally damaging, exploitative industry, as do lots of others. I understand there are problems with it and realize that much of the criticism against it is legitimate. I don’t complain about people having chips on their shoulders when they criticise it however.
 
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Soldato
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I'm not saying farmers are whiter than white, but in any way suggesting they're wealthy land owners protecting their wealth through unreasonable actions is simply wrong.

I grew up in a farming village, when I was 6/7 and moved there, 5 farms operated supporting probably 30+ people.

35 years later and there's 3 operating farms, but massively cut down, barn conversions all over as the farmers have been forced to sell land to survive.

A lot don't even own their own equipment these days, relying on "borrowing" a neighbouring farmer's.
 
Soldato
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+1

Apex preditors are an absolute must have for a natural balance in nature.

Which is why Human hunters are now an important factor in managing environments where all the other apex predators have been wiped out...

And WTF shouldn't we enjoy the role? Humans have spent, what, several million years, evolving into an Apex predator.

And now we have a couple of generations worth of urban S/AJWs telling us that we have been doing it all wrong for the last 100,000 generations or so!

Really!

:rolleyes:
 
Caporegime
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+1

A month or so ago i was watching a tv series about the reintroduction of Wolves into Yellowstone nation park. The reintroduction actually started many years ago now, and the wolf numbers have grown massively but have stabilised now because of the area they have available to them.
The most interesting part of the series though was the relationship between the wolves and the mountain lions (Cougers). Before the wolf reintroduction, couger numbers were slowly dropping. Since the wolves reintroduction they have steadily risen. The reason for this is that both wolves and Cougers are Apex preditors they do hunt and kill each other. It was thought by scientists doing the study that Couger numbers would actually drop, not rise. It turns out after years of study and loads of tv footage that a single Couger can wipe out 2 to 3 Wolves in a wolf attack. If a whole pack of Wolves attack a single Couger in the open, then the Couger stands no chance. Apex preditors are an absolute must have for a natural balance in nature.


There are a lot fo other interesting results from Yellowstone:
  • It was thought grizzly bear numbers might decline over competition, but the opposite happens because wolves tend to leave carcasses the bears scavenge
  • Deer, elk and antelope numbers have decline just a little, but this has allowed increases in bushy vegetation which is providing more cover & resources for other animals with improved breeding and healthier numbers. This is especially apparent along rivers and streams, where the extra vegetation is improving water quality and reducing flood risks. Ruminant numbers were artificially high without the wolves so this is an important re-balancing of the natural state.
  • The extra vegetation along rivers is helping the beaver population to return - they were almost extinct form the park before the wolves were reintroduced. Beavers are creating damns which further improves water quality and reduced flood risks. There is also now better breading/nurturing ground for fish so trout numbers are increasing. That in turn is helping other animals including bears and eagles.
  • Deer, elk and antelope genetic health is improving because the wolves are attacking the sick and weak. This is a much better population control method than hunting because hunters always prefer the biggest alpha-males, declining genetic health
  • Wolves don't hibernate, and in fact winter is their most successful and busy hunting season because prey animals are slower in snow and weaker without much food + cold. The elk are naturally migratory and should descend to lower levels during winter, in part to avoid the wolf predation. When the wolves were extinct in yellowstone the elk started to over-winter in the park, which then had devastating impacts on the younger more delicate shrubs and shoots. The wolves put pressure on the the lk to migrate further allowing the plants in yellowstone to better survive harsh winters. Without the wolves the elk also tended to suffer form occasionally large die-off events, whereby because they tended to stay higher up in the valley unafraid of wolves in winter, and combined with the in general weaker genetic health due to lack of predation, in a particular cold/long winter a large percentage of Elk would not make it to the spring. This lead to abnormal cycle of boom and bust scavenging for bears and birds alike. this unpredictability had consequences downstream for bears raising cubs. Now a days the elk are more widespread, with many more moved to lower lying areas that can better survive harsh winters. The elk that remain also tend to stick to denser forest to hide form wolves, where they cause much less damage to mature trees than young saplings in the meadows. They also prefer sunnier slopes with a shallower snowpack so they can better run away form attac

And that is really just the start of the knock-on effects. fascinating stuff
 
Caporegime
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Which is why Human hunters are now an important factor in managing environments where all the other apex predators have been wiped out...

And WTF shouldn't we enjoy the role? Humans have spent, what, several million years, evolving into an Apex predator.

And now we have a couple of generations worth of urban S/AJWs telling us that we have been doing it all wrong for the last 100,000 generations or so!

Really!

:rolleyes:


Considering the state of the environment and mass extinction of plants and animals, yes, absolutelu humans having been doing it wrong.
 
Soldato
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Considering the state of the environment and mass extinction of plants and animals, yes, absolutelu humans having been doing it wrong.


But it isnt our hunter gathering that is wrong, it is our urbanization and eventual industrialization, and that is a different thing altogether.

Because that is what is new and is not the thing we evolved for.
 
Soldato
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Which is why Human hunters are now an important factor in managing environments where all the other apex predators have been wiped out...

And WTF shouldn't we enjoy the role? Humans have spent, what, several million years, evolving into an Apex predator.

And now we have a couple of generations worth of urban S/AJWs telling us that we have been doing it all wrong for the last 100,000 generations or so!

Really!

:rolleyes:

I think an argument that killing things for fun is wrong, is a pretty reasonable argument personally.
 
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