GPs complaints regarding work life balance

[Raymond Lin]

The lady I've mentioned has 5 GCSE's and no A-levels, she failed them. She started a course at college when she was 25 (think it was 3 years, I may be wrong) which then allowed her to apply for and get on to a medical degree. When I applied for St Andrews they were wanting ABB from memory although I don't think they took less than an AAB. GCSE's didn't come in to it. At least for me as they never asked to see my results.

So essentially she re did her GCSE and a-levels (3 year period) and got the required marks to get into Medicine so she is a late starter as she still need the rest of the training. I am not seeing a problem here in terms of work required.

Current UCAS requirements are (albeit this page says Hospital doctor, not GP)

https://www.ucas.com/ucas/after-gcses/find-career-ideas/explore-jobs/job-profile/hospital-doctor

What do I need to do to become a hospital doctor?
To become a doctor you need to complete a five-year degree in medicine. Entry requirements vary, but to get on a medical degree you normally need at least five GCSEs at grades A* or A, including English and maths and at least grade B in science. You also need a minimum of three A levels at grades AAA or AAB in chemistry and either biology, physics or maths, plus another academic subject. If your medical degree is your second undergraduate degree, it will be four years long.

After completing a medical degree, you then need to complete two years of foundation training, followed by three to seven years of specialist training. The length of your training will depend on which speciality you have chosen. You will also need to pass a Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) check.

You can even see what each university asks for here, I think the minimum is AAB but most are AAA. You are right that some don't state GCSE requirements, some do, it depends on the university.

https://www.medschools.ac.uk/media/2357/msc-entry-requirements-for-uk-medical-schools.pdf

So, in terms of intelligence, you need to be smart to be a doctor, that is the metric we, as a society have chosen to select and filter out people to be doctors. You can say there are a better way to pick smarter people but this is what we've got. As for dizzy people, I know a lot of dizzy people in day to day life but they are surprisingly good at what they do at work. So unless you have seen her at work, I am not sure how accurate that statement is in terms of her overall job performance?

 

[danlightbulb]

Just thinking out loud here but wouldnt we be better served by double the number of gp's on half the salary. I would hazzard a guess that most ailments are routine, so there could be a two tier gp system where routine ailments are dealt with by a lesser trained gp and for serious things referals are made to a better trained/more experienced gp. Increasing the number would help with the appointments, waiting times and overworking.

I think a lot of reasonably educated people (STEM subjects) could be a tier 1 gp and would be more than happy with £40k a year.

For evidence this could work, how many here self diagnose minor ailments using google? I know I do, i just self diagnosed labyrinthitis last week after having a cold.

 

[Shoza]

I think we can agree:

1. GPs are VERY well paid as a comparison to other careers; and

2. GPs work very long / hard days but so do a lot of other professionals (lawyers being a good example - generally paid less than GPs but also have several years of training and unsociable hours).

 

[DarrenM343]

You start down the path towards being a doctor at 18. Nobody at 18 knows anything.

I'd have thought by then most know they're entering a career where they may have to work long hours .
My career has been similar to be honest in that my work/life balance hasn't always been great. I accepted it when I took the route. Work/life balance has been **** sometimes but I had my eye on something else - being able to retire early is also work/life balance. Being able to earn a higher income in any career helps this, providing people save.
GP's provide a fabulous service and of course people need to be happy in their work and healthy.
It's difficult in healthcare and other public services when they're providing a public service and demand is high on their time.

I have friends in other careers that love their work, get paid well, and do all the hours they want. Often when people love what they do, they don;t think about work/life - their work is part of their life. Do those moaning about work/life balance no longer enjoy their job?
Something should be done though. Fast track junior GP's. Could even use automation to screen patients before making appointments. My local GP practice still have a high number of patients that simply don't show up for appointments. And who knows how many still go to their GP over a runny nose.

Right now I'm recovering from an urgent operation. The most difficult bit was getting referred in the first place. See GP, try this, doesn't work, wait 3-4 weeks again to see GP. Once I saw a specialist I was in hospital for the operation the following week. Part of the operation was to do a biopsy so thinking about that, could really have done without the delays.
The above isn't a bad reflection on GP's - but we need to do something about staffing, patients not waiting for weeks for GP appointments. Telling GP's for example they must only work 8 hour days would not help that at the moment. Patient care needs to be top priority .

 

[Raymond Lin]

Just thinking out loud here but wouldnt we be better served by double the number of gp's on half the salary. I would hazzard a guess that most ailments are routine, so there could be a two tier gp system where routine ailments are dealt with by a lesser trained gp and for serious things referals are made to a better trained/more experienced gp. Increasing the number would help with the appointments, waiting times and overworking.

I think a lot of reasonably educated people (STEM subjects) could be a tier 1 gp and would be more than happy with £40k a year.

For evidence this could work, how many here self diagnose minor ailments using google? I know I do, i just self diagnosed labyrinthitis last week after having a cold.

How do you propose to double up the people wanting to do the job at half the pay?

I don't think there is such a thing as "lesser trained" GP…..it's like there isn't such a thing as a "lesser trained Barrister". Sure there is different level of experience by that comes with time. They all have gone through the same level of school and training and I am not sure I want to be seen by someone who is lesser trained.

As for routine procedures, my surgery already do that, blood test for example are done by nurses, not the GP.

 

[Dis86]

@Raymond Lin You don't need to be smart. You need to be good at passing exams. Unfortunately the education system in this country focusses on the latter. This is the issue with the current systems we have and why I have to keep rejecting graduate students. They look great on paper but in reality aren't bright.

Might explain why my GP was googling my symptoms whilst I was sat there last week!

 

[Russinating]

You've pretty much just described NHS 111/112.

 

[Raymond Lin]

@Raymond Lin You don't need to be smart. You need to be good at passing exams. Unfortunately the education system in this country focusses on the latter. This is the issue with the current systems we have and why I have to keep rejecting graduate students. They look great on paper but in reality aren't bright.

Like I said in my post, that is the system that we have to filter out applicants, by asking them to pass subjects such as Chemistry, Physics and Maths…as opposed to history or Media Studies. Subjects that require thinking, problem solving, analysis in the subject. I know its not perfect but how do you propose a better solution to pick the applicants for the course in the first place on a mass scale?

 

[Pottsey]

You are incorrect.

The lessons you refer to are PPA. Which there is 5 of a fortnight.

Not enough time to plan, mark and prepare for the other 45 lessons.

For example, year groups reports may take 6 hours to deal with. And there is 7 year groups in secondary education.

The "holidays" are intact non contact time. Apart from 30odd days which every single person is entitled too as holiday.
Teachers are expected to work during the "holidays".

Anyone who says different needs to reassess their understanding.

No I am not incorrect. PPA is non contact time teachers are entitled to during the work week. Most teachers do not work throughout the holidays. They might do an odd day here or there or perhaps 1 week out of 5 but they get the bulk of the holiday off.

Anyone doing more that that is either managing their own time badly or in a bad school and should move. Its not normal or healthy for a Teachers to work throughout most holidays.

 

[Diagro]

No I am not incorrect. PPA is non contact time teachers are entitled to during the week. Most teachers do not work throughout the holidays. They might do an odd day here or there or perhaps 1 week out of 5 but they get the bulk of the holiday.

Anyone doing more that that is either managing their own time badly or in a bad school and should move. Its not normal or healthy for a Teachers to work throughout most holidays.

You are deluded. It's impossible to do the required work demanded of you in the hours given as PPA.

 

[Dis86]

Like I said in my post, that is the system that we have to filter out applicants, by asking them to pass subjects such as Chemistry, Physics and Maths…as opposed to history or Media Studies. Subjects that require thinking, problem solving, analysis in the subject. I know its not perfect but how do you propose a better solution to pick the applicants for the course in the first place on a mass scale?

Oh I agree and don't have a better solution other than a shake up of the education system as a whole.
I had to attend an interview and a spot exam although I don't know if that's standard practice.

 

[Diagro]

The course has PGTE included. You can also do a secondary level one.

3 years to become a teacher, being a specialised course or not is irrelevant, if you wanted to become a teacher it takes 3 years.

It's a qualification that no one's wants. Pointless to argue.

To become a secondary school teacher. Takes 5+ years

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

It's a qualification that no one's wants. Pointless to argue.

To become a secondary school teacher. Takes 5+ years

You're constantly moving goalposts and adding criteria, I stated it takes 3 years it you wanted to become a teacher, you posted that It doesnt, I posted evidence that it does, but apparantly no one wants to do that course (I cant imagine why they offer it if a single person doesn't enrol!) So it's now pointless to argue? You're flat out wrong.

Now apparently the only ones who count are secondary teachers, really grasping here arent you? You can do a two year BA degree at a number of university's now, then do the one year PGCE for secondary https://www.kingston.ac.uk/postgraduate-course/secondary-teaching-qts-pgce/
What's 2+1 again?

 

[Pottsey]

You are deluded. It's impossible to do the required work demanded of you in the hours given as PPA.

I never said you can get all the work done in PPA which is non contact time during the work week. What I said is Teachers get non contact time every week so they don't have to do as much work in the holidays. You are deluded if you think its normal for teachers to work every holiday or even the bulk of the holidays. While that does happen in bad schools its not normal or healthy.

 

[Dis86]

I never said you can get all the work done in PPA which is non contact time during the work week. What I said is Teachers get non contact time every week so they don't have to do as much work in the holidays. You are deluded if you think its normal for teachers to work every holiday or even the bulk of the holidays. While that does happen in bad schools its not normal or healthy.

I know 5 teachers. All work at different schools. It is normal for every single one of them.

 

[Diagro]

You're constantly moving goalposts and adding criteria, I stated it takes 3 years it you wanted to become a teacher, you posted that It doesnt, I posted evidence that it does, but apparantly no one wants to do that course (I cant imagine why they offer it if a single person doesn't enrol!) So it's now pointless to argue? You're flat out wrong.

Now apparently the only ones who count are secondary teachers, really grasping here arent you? You can do a two year BA degree at a number of university's now, then do the one year PGCE for secondary https://www.kingston.ac.uk/postgraduate-course/secondary-teaching-qts-pgce/
What's 2+1 again?

Not 3. That example is 4 years.

90% of teachers don't do a teaching degree. They do a Subject specific degree before training.

I'm bored now. I also have 140 folders I need to grade before tomorrow.

 

[adam cool dude]

My 2p but everyone expects 9-5 as normal but it just doesn't cut in today's 24 hour society. I am not a doctor but a manager of around 40 people so first in last out. Everyone did overtime and being at the top meant you had to do even more overtime. For the past three years I have been working on a shift based 12 hour shift. Overtime has gone down to basically nothing and I only work half the year. Maybe doctors need to go down this route due to the fact surgeries are just open for longer now.

 

[Diagro]

I never said you can get all the work done in PPA which is non contact time during the work week. What I said is Teachers get non contact time every week so they don't have to do as much work in the holidays. You are deluded if you think its normal for teachers to work every holiday or even the bulk of the holidays. While that does happen in bad schools its not normal or healthy.

Bad schools.

Every single teacher I know (secondary and primary) working in schools graded between special measures and outstanding have the same issues with work load and needing to work majority of their holidays.

Not bad schools at all.
Where do you work? Only deluded Senior leaders have the stance you have.

 

[chrcoluk]

Most of my GPs at my surgery only see patients for less than half the week, there is now 6 of them but they do 2 consultant days per week each, I dont know what they doing for the other 3 days.

What I do is that at my old surgery the two main GPs there for 2 days a week were doing work for the tribunal service, which was pretty shocking given that in that surgery there was only 3 GPs in total.

I am not saying their job is easy, it probably isnt, but, they need to put things into perspective, long hours is not unusual in 2019, and their pay is outstanding. Back in the 1990s my GP had to do house calls well into the evening when he was done in the day in the surgery as out of hour GPs were not around then to cover that stuff.

If I could turn back the clock and was back at school, a job in medicine is probably what I would have picked to study on.

 

[Pottsey]

I know 5 teachers. All work at different schools. It is normal for every single one of them.

Its not normal for any of the schools in my area. I have seen it happen in bad schools or failing schools who are trying to get out of special measures. But the good and outstanding schools tend to have a much better work/life balance. Its not a given as a Teacher you will be working every holiday all the time. Get into a good school and the amount of workload you do at home drops massively. There will always be some though.