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Greece parliament demand Germany pay WWII reparations

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Evangelion, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,048

    I think you're confusing the EU and the eurozone - Greece has been a member of the EU from the start and was a member of the European Community which predates the EU.

    Greece is also a member of the Eurozone (the group of countries that use the euro currency) and was was deliberately deceptive when joining (namely arranging a very dodgy swap deal with Goldman Sachs).
     
  2. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,869

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    Creative accounting when joining the Euro.
     
  3. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073



    Not sure what the relevance is and don't get the sense.

    Greece has no valid reasons to ask for the full repayment of a wartime debt because it can leave the E.U?

    Its politicians are not allowed to play politics when the optics look good and the contrast in its favor (particularly with its own citizens) because it can leave the E.U?

    It should leave the E.U because its making a claim on Germany for money Germany did not repay?
     
  4. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,692

    It already got war reparations, vastly reducing further chances at it. This definitely isn’t up for discussion, whether or not they can persuade the ECJ, Hague or whatever court actually deals with that, is entirely up to their ability to provide a valid case for further payment. This isn’t an EU related thing whatsoever.

    I’m talking about Greece’s general problems, which this is simply a facade for, especially after recognising Macedonia.
     
  5. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,073

    Yes I am aware it has nothing to do with the E.U.

    ?

    I am also aware it was paid reparations. No one in the thread made clear the nature of those reparations.

    Sounds generous until its put into context Germany extorted a 476 million loan from Greece during the war. in 1960 it payed 115 million of that debt back.

    Simple observation.

    Been a lot of focus in the thread on perceived negative national characteristics of the Greeks in regard to the debts it has built up. Getting what it deserves. Looking at the history here suggests things don't work like this in practice or at least if you are an important and large enough state. Germany built up considerable debt while trying to enslave or exterminate a large part of Europe.

    It was dealt with humanly and allowed to recover. Things change. We much prefer austerity, the stick and moral accountability it would seem. More of a taste for conflict and dispute.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  6. B&W

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,875

    Location: Birmingham

    Devious Greeks at it yet again, whether there foes lie in the East or West there tactics of politics and devious deceit are the same since time immemorial.
     
  7. Semple

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 5, 2010

    Posts: 5,189

    I don't think anyone would disagree that Germany got off very lightly wrt the money that they should have owed Greece. But this is only kicking the can down the road.

    Even if Germany did pay off their full debts, give it another 10-20 years and Greece will still be back in the same position.

    Greece needs to force its lazy population back into work until similar retirement ages that we have in the UK, and then it needs to clamp down harder on tax evasion.
     
  8. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

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    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    I was hoping Panos would contribute. Has anyone seen him lately?
     
  9. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,869

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    I think its easy to disagree if you purely look at the numbers, but adding all the other factors in the line was drawn years ago, and it should be left at that. This is just another stunt by the Greek government to try and paper over their deficiencies.

    I'm not sure I agree that this is the answer to anything. It's certainly a solution, but we work far too long in this country than it is healthy to do so.

    Like the UK does :rolleyes:?
     
  10. Semple

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 5, 2010

    Posts: 5,189

    That may be so, but unless we can drastically reduce the costs of living, people end up being forced to work longer in order to pay for their retirement. For people of my generation retirement is looking more and more like a pipe dream.
    The UK might not be perfect at clamping down on tax evasion, but Google/Starbucks/Amazon contributing something is better than nothing, but no government left or right has had any interest on clamping down hard. I remember reading about some of the tax evasion tactics the Greeks use, like covering their swimming pools with green tarpaulin so from a flyover it looks just like grass areas and the owners then don't get taxed on the pool.
     
  11. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,869

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    Yeah, which is small change and really going after the wrong people anyway. I don't disagree that individual tax evasion is a problem, but here especially the government target these people because they're less likely to be able to defend themselves, and their chums all run the companies for whom tax evasion is a legalised game in the form of avoidance.

    In Greece it seems more of a case that a) the government can't be bothered to collect all the tax due, and b) a lot can't be bothered to file a tax return. The problem in Greece is of course exacerbated by the fact that a huge percentage of workers are self-employed and find it easier to hide taxable income.
     
  12. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 12,200

    Authorities want tax money, the people don't want to pay it. It's a never ending battle. Who wouldn't avoid a bit of tax if they could get away with it? A lot of people don't pay the TV license because they know FA will happen. It's the same in Greece with tax.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  13. The_Abyss

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    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    This is Speakers Corner, not GD. Can you please provide a citation for the sweeping generalisation you've made that Greeks are inherently more lazy than other nations?
     
  14. Semple

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 5, 2010

    Posts: 5,189

    Greece:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/retirement-age-men

    https://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/12/04/75-of-greek-pensioners-enjoy-early-retirement/

    It was increased substantially back in 2010, but that wasn't going to pull the majority of the population back into work, and then means the state has to fund those retirements for ~20.2-30.0 years (https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/greece-life-expectancy)
     
  15. The_Abyss

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    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    Great, so you've covered Greek retirement ages. That has nothing to do with work ethic or laziness. The State has a set retirement age, and unsurprisingly the people begin to collect that pension from that age. That's kind of how it works in other countries with similar state pension systems.

    So, I ask again, please provide a citation for the sweeping generalisation you've made that Greeks are inherently more lazy than other nations.
     
  16. Freakbro

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  17. 4K8KW10

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 2, 2017

    Posts: 5,865

    It's a very well known fact that nations in the South, and especially Balkan nations do like to play more than to work.
    Also, their technical competencies which lead to quality goods are generally lower.

    I think Germany will nicely tell the Greekish to calm down and watch carefully their minds, while refusing these 70-years long overdue payments.

    Poland is even worse - I think they want more than 3 times more!
     
  18. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    Please provided factual evidence.
     
  19. Nasher

    Capodecina

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    Fiat.
     
  20. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    This isn't GD - you'll have to do better than that.